KenH
Well-Known Member
All of God's elect will be given repentance toward God and faith toward Christ.
I have read them.
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God Given Faith
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
All of God's elect will be given repentance toward God and faith toward Christ.
I have read them.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Everyone should read verses in context.
I have read all of the Psalms.
There is a need for the gospel of Christ as all of God's elect, in time, will be brought to repentance toward God and faith toward Christ.
True. And Christ's people have been elect in Him since before the world began.
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
KenH
Well-Known Member
The gospel has been preached since the Garden of Eden.
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I do not. I recognize that God is absolutely, totally sovereign.
Absolutely not!
For God's purposes and glory.
Romans 9:10-21 When Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; ( for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ) it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing , and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Romans 3:9-18 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
No, it is not. It is very straightforward, for the gospel of Christ is not confusing.
Yes, all things.
The "all" that God saves are those whom He chose before the world began as His elect and gave to His Son to be their Surety.
God is sovereign. He does exactly what He desires with His creation for His purposes and glory.
It is not illogical. I can only explain as God enables me to do while in this vile, weak flesh which my redeemed soul still inhabits.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
One has to repent and have faith prior to them being one of the elect.
You just ignore them
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
If you do then why do you misunderstand so much of scripture?
Since we we looking at Psa 110 it is obvious that you did not understand it.
Since one is only elect when they are in Christ your comment is teaching error.
If they were in Christ since before the foundation of the world then why was the cross necessary? By your view they were already saved.
Your theology is really backward, you have people saved before they believe and actually before they even exist.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The protevangelium, "The First Gospel." It foretells the continuous hostility between Satan and mankind. It does not show the means of salvation, by grace through faith.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your whole response is illogical. You say God is "absolutely, totally sovereign" and that He decrees "all things." and man can "Absolutely not!" overrule any of His decrees.
And yet under your theological view man can be responsible for what he has not control over. Even the verses you quote do not support your view.
Man sins, that is obvious but that does not mean that he can not think and evaluate the information that God provides for him. If that were not possible then God is either wasting His time or He is disingenuous in condemning man for not doing what God has decreed they cannot do.
That is why your theology is confusing and illogical.
By the way you treat scripture you cannot trust what God says. When God says He desires "all" to be saved your theology says He really only meant a select few. So your making God out to be a liar and one that can not be trusted. Your theology makes The God of creation seem more like the father of lies. Look at what your theology does to the character of God.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Incorrect. Election is an action by God, it is not dependent upon the creature in any way, shape, or form.
No, I do not.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I am living in a vile, wretched, sinful, fleshly body. I only understand what God enables me to understand by His Holy Spirit.
What I wrote in that sentence is taught in God's Word.
Christ is the Surety of God's elect, their sins were imputed to Him and He paid their sin debt at the cross.
"When, I say, the elect of God are justified from eternity, I do not think, that they had an actual personal existence from eternity, though they had a representative one in Christ; or that an actual payment of their debts, or an actual satisfaction for their sins was then made by Christ, though he engaged to do it; nor do I intend justification from eternity, in such a sense, as to set aside the imputation of Adam's sin to the condemnation of the elect in him; or to render Christ's bringing in an actual righteousness in time unnecessary; or to make faith useless in our justification, in our own consciences, as, I hope, I shall shortly make appear; yet, on the other hand, I mean more by justification from eternity, than merely God's prescience, or foreknowledge of it, to whom all works are known, from the beginning of the world, from eternity; (Acts of the Apostles 15:18) more than a mere resolution and purpose to justify his elect in time, he calling things that are not, as though they were; (Romans 4:17) or, in other words, more than a decretive justification, as some divines call it; who apprehend that God's elect can, in no other sense, be said to he justified from eternity, than they may be said to he sanctified or glorified from eternity, because he had decreed to sanctify and glorify them: I say, I mean more than thus, and assert, with Dr. Ames, that justification "is a sentence conceived in the mind of God, by the decree of justification;" that this is an act in God, all whose acts in him are eternal; that this is the grand original sentence of justification; of which that pronounced on Christ, as our representative, when he rose from the dead, and that which is pronounced by the Spirit of God in the conscience of believers, as well as that which will be pronounced before men and angels, at the general judgment, are no other than so many repetitions, or renewed declarations; that this includes the whole complete esse of justification; being, as Mr. Rutherfoord observes, "An eternal and immanent act in God, and not transient upon an external subject. Of which sort, adds he, are the acts of election and reprobation, which have their whole complete being before the persons elected, reprobated, or justified, either begin to be, live or believe, or do any thing good or evil." In a word, I apprehend, that as God's eternal decree of election of persons to everlasting life, is the eternal election of them, so God's will, decree, or purpose, to justify his elect, is the eternal justification of them; though his eternal will to sanctify them is not an eternal sanctification of them; because sanctification is a work of God's grace upon us, and within us, and so requires our personal existence. Justification is an act of God's grace towards us, is wholly without us, entirely resides in the divine mind, and lies in his estimation, accounting and constituting us righteous, through the righteousness of his Son; and so required neither the actual existence of Christ's righteousness, nor of our persons, but only that both should certainly exist in time."
- excerpt from John Gill's "The Doctrine Of Justification, By The Righteousness Of Christ, Stated And Maintained"
KenH
Well-Known Member
The means of salvation is by the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Man has no control because he is a mere creature, not the Creator. The Creator has control, not the creature.
Yes, they do.
I agree.
God never wastes His time, that is a creature failing.
God is never disingenuous, that is a creature failing.
It is impossible for God to fail in achieving His purposes, His desires, His glory. God never fails.
The apostle Paul answered your charge long ago: Romans 9:19-21 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
No, it isn't.
Your charge is not valid; I trust what God says.
"All" is all that He gave to His Son before the world began to be their Surety. Do you think that "all" in Luke 2:1 means those who were living in places we now call North America, and Central America, and South America? Or was "all" only those under the rule of Rome?
No, I am not. You are the one claiming that God is wrong to say that He grants faith and that He grants repentance from dead works, and claiming that sinful creatures can create those things for themselves.
No, that would be your creature-based false teaching.
You should look to your God-dishonoring, creature-based beliefs in which you reduce God in your creature-based reasoning to nothing more than the Greek gods of ancient literature or the "super heroes" in a modern day Marvel Comics movie.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So your saying that God saves those that have not faith, that did not trust in His son.
So you either do not have these verses in your bible or you just ignore them.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
KenH
Well-Known Member
No, I am not saying that.
Neither of those charges is correct.
Amen!
Amen!
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So what we get from your comments is
1} The Holy Spirit is responsible for your lack of understanding of His word. Not to much logic in that view @KenH
2} You still do not read things in context or if you do you just ignore what it teaches.
3} The bible says Christ was the propitiation for the whole world so by your logic the whole would is elect.
4} Why would I trust Gill over the Holy Spirit and His word?
KenH
Well-Known Member
Matthew 13:11 It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Your charge is false.
World means Jews and Gentiles in 1 John 2:2, not just Jews as the case had largely been for many centuries before Christ came in the flesh. Look at Luke 2:1. A student of the Bible must always keep in mind the context, context, context.
What I quoted to you from Gill concerning God choosing a people to give to Christ before the world began to be their Surety is taught in the Bible. Your denial of God's sovereignty in the matter does not affect at all the Biblical teaching that God is sovereign in the matter of salvation.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So if the means of redemption is the blood of Christ then the whole world is redeemed. Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man, 1Jn_2:2 propitiation for the whole world, 1Ti_2:6 gave Himself a ransom for all, 1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of believers, Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly,
But it was not His death that saves us but His life.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
That is why we worship the risen Christ not the one who remains in a grave or on a cross.
1Co 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
FYI "through his blood" is not found in the best ancient Greek manuscript. It may have been copied from Eph 1:7.
While mankind was reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross we are only saved by repentance and faith in the risen Christ.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Yes, the whole world of God's elect is redeemed.
God saves His people by, through, and in Christ. No creature can save himself through any effort or action of his own.
Jonah 2:9 Salvation is of the LORD.
Salvation is not of man. Salvation is of the LORD.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
All you end up doing in your post is disagree with scripture. You pull verses out of context or miss read the text by giving unwarranted meaning to words. Sad really that you spend so much time and effort to deny the word of God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Both those charges are true since you continue to deny or alter the meaning of the text of scripture