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Featured Romans 9 Isn't What You Think It Is

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by CJP69, May 16, 2024.

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  1. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    You started it.
    They have been challenged. And they have been challenged based on the fact that God is personal and we must be saved personally, as individuals, not as part of a group; and based on the fact that God is indeed righteous and just (that being our biggest problem, along with the fact we are hopeless sinners). So knock off the baloney and engage the above points with some kind of actual refuting of my points, rather than constantly braying about how no one can engage your brilliance.
     
  2. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    You've already departed from Calvinist teaching. Way to go! It took you one single sentence!

    And I'm not even close to being the only one who uses that argument! LOL!

    And rightly so! There are many times more people in Hell today than will ever see heaven because of Augustinian doctrine and Calvinism in particular.

    That is an altogether different argument that barely even over laps the argument that says that Calvinism's theology proper makes God to be unjust. It is, however, an argument that no Calvinist could answer in a manner that was consistent with his own doctrine. It is one of the many times when you'll see Calvinists talk out of both sides of their mouth and intentionally ignore how their left cheek contradicts their right.

    Of course it does! That is, however, a topic for another thread.

    Indeed, it is the Calvinist who has to borrow from MY doctrine or else flagrantly admit that God is arbitrary. It's a total coin toss as to which way a particular Calvinist will go.

    That is not a Calvinist distinctive doctrine nor is it the premise upon which they base ANY of their distinctive doctrines. In fact, they take this doctrine well beyond what the biblical material will support precisely because of their actual premises, is absolute divine immutability. Some of them will insist that their primary premise is their version of divine sovereignty (another doctrine which the take well beyond the biblical material, not to mention the definition of the term) but when pressed it become clear that their understanding of even that doctrine is informed by (i.e. predicated on) immutability.

    The doctrine of original sin is the brain child of Augustine and it cannot survive even a surface casual reading of Ezekiel 18 nor can it survive the acknowledgement of the fact that God is just, as Ezekiel 18 clearly establishes, by the way.

    Tell me again how this is supposed to be refuting my argument?!

    Again, you depart from Calvinist doctrine. Ask Alen, He'll tell you. Calvinists DO NOT believe that there is any such thing as a free will. Every thought word or deed that anyone performs was immutably predestined by God for no reason other than God wanted to do it.

    Here it is from the horse's mouth (i.e. from Calvinism's own source documents)....

    “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

    “thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)​

    This only means that you are not as rationally consistent as whatever it is you think "the strict sense" of Calvinism is. This may or may not be intentional, the point being merely that Calvinist soteriology follows logically from their theology proper. You can cherry pick doctrines if you want but just understand that this is what you are doing, even if unknowingly.

    The problem with your line of thinking here is the fact that you just got through distancing yourself from actual Calvinist doctrine!

    There are LOTS of actual Calvinists who give lip serves to God being just, practically all of them do, in fact, but it is only just that, lip service. You simply don't get to say out of one side of your mouth things that make God arbitrary and then declare to the world that you believe that God is just and not be called a lunatic by people like me who can think clearly. God is either arbitrary or He is just! He cannot be both no matter how badly someone what's it be that way! Contradictions do not exist! Show me a god that is arbitrary and I'll show you a god that does not exist.

    Either you have very different definitions of several words, most notably the term "sovereign" than any Calvinist I've ever met or you just stated so many self-contradictory things that I don't even know where to begin to respond to them.

    In short, if God is "sovereign" in the way Calvinists redefine that term, then there isn't any such thing as free will. If you think otherwise then you are confused.

    Saying it doesn't make it so!

    Ezekiel 18 by itself blows you "correct view of man's natural condition" (a.k.a. original sin / total depravity) into dust.

    This is an over statement. The choice you present between total depravity / original sin vs. "neutral towards God" is a false dichotomy.
     
  3. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    I treat enemies of the truth as enemies, Dave. It really isn't that hard to figure out. You seem to think "Christian love" means to be nice to everyone including those who insult God's integrity. Defending God's reputation is somehow hateful or something. Makes no sense at all. People can be as hateful towards me as they want so long as they hold to a doctrine you like but let me be intolerant of of a heretic and that's "unchristian"!

    And King David (i.e. your name's sake) lived a lot earlier than the 1600's. He ruled around about 1000 years before Christ and he absolutely would have rounded up anyone who taught that God was arbitrary and either stoned them or run them off of a cliff.
     
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I don't see a lot of writings in your posts about,
    The National Seed of Abraham vs The Spiritual Seed of Abraham.

    Romans 9:7
    "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,
    are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

    "Neither because they are the seed of Abraham"
    ,....
    The Jews highly valued themselves,
    upon being the Natural seed of Abraham;

    "and fancied, upon this account, that they were children,
    which the Apostle here denies: neither are they all children;

    as in the former verse, he explains in what sense they were Israelites,
    which he had mentioned among their high characters and privileges,
    as descending from Jacob
    , and in what sense they were not;

    "so in this he shows in what manner the "Adoption", Romans 9:4,
    belonged to them, and how it did not;
    being Abraham's seed, they were his natural children,
    and the children of God by National Adoption;

    "but, they were not all the Spiritual children of Abraham,
    nor the children of God by the Special Grace of Adoption;


    "these characters only belonged to some of them,
    and which are equally true of Gentile believers;
    who being of the same Faith with Abraham,
    are his children, his seed, and also the children of God:

    natural descent from Abraham avails nothing in this case,

    as is clear from the instance of Ishmael and Isaac.

    "Ishmael was the Natural seed of Abraham, as well as Isaac;
    but Ishmael was not a son of Abraham in a Spiritual sense,
    nor a child of God; he was not a child of Promise,

    this was peculiar to Isaac:

    but in Isaac shall thy seed be called; see Genesis 21:12.

    "The meaning of which is, either that the progeny of Abraham
    in the line of Isaac should only be Called, Accounted, and Esteemed,
    in an Eminent sense, the seed of Abraham
    , and not his posterity
    in the line of Ishmael: agreeably to which the Jews say, that

    "Ishmael is not , "in the general account of the seed of Abraham";

    for it is said, "in Isaac shall thy seed be called", Genesis 21:12;

    "nor is Esau in the general account of the seed of Isaac;

    "...or all that sprung from Isaac. Or this has respect to the most Eminent
    and Famous Seed of Abraham, the Messiah,
    in whom all nations of the earth were to be blessed;

    "who was to spring from him by Isaac, in the line of Jacob;

    "and may likewise have a personal respect to Isaac himself,
    the son of the Promise, a child of Abraham in a Spiritual sense,

    when Ishmael was not;

    "and to Isaac belonged the Spiritual Promises and Blessings,
    and who was to be, and was Effectually Called by the Grace of God;

    "and may include also his whole seed and posterity,
    who, both Natural and Spiritual, were children of the Typical Promise,
    the land of Canaan, and the enjoyment of temporal good things;

    "and the matter also children of the Antitypical Promise,
    or of those Spiritual and Eternal Things,
    which God has Promised to Abraham's Spiritual seed,
    whether among Jews or Gentiles;

    "and which always have their Effect,
    and had,
    even when, and though Abraham's Natural seed
    had a "lo ammi"*,
    Hosea 1:9, written upon them."

    Commentary adapted from: Romans 9 Gill's Exposition

    "not my people"

    "(not my people ), the figurative name given
    by the prophet Hosea to his second son by Gomer
    the daughter of Diblaim, ( Hosea 1:9 )
    to denote the rejection of the kingdom of Israel by Jehovah."

    "lo ammi" - Google Search

     
  5. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    It wasn't a lie. I don't read every thread and my comments were obviously made in the context of the lack of response to MY POSTS.

    (I couldn't resist finding something to capitalize, since you seem to like it so much.)
     
  6. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Please explain to me how my own premises are a challenge to my premises? This makes no sense at all! Are you somehow thinking that I believe that we must be saved as a part of a group or that I'm somehow arguing that anyone ever has been saved in such a manner? If so, you have severely misunderstood something! I mean SEVERELY misunderstood!

    I respond to you on practically a sentence by sentence basis, nevermind a point by point basis. I have got to be the most responsive person on this entire website where the average person can't be bothered to even write his own posts but would rather copy/paste someone else's arguments and commentary.
     
  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    CJ. There is not a set thing called "Calvinist teaching". Calvin was way more deterministic than I am, and like me he probably did not believe in limited atonement. He also was not strong on Ephesians 2:8,9 proving that "faith" is what the gift of God refers to, rather than the whole package of grace. If you are going to discuss this stuff you are going to have to meet people where they engage you, not where you think you can give a good answer.
    On the contrary, it is the starting point for nearly every Calvinist apologist because if we all are guilty then rescuing some and leaving others means that those left to themselves have had no injustice done to them.
    And like I said above, those left out are left to their own free will, which by the way does exist. (I am not bound to go completely with Calvin.) Here's Owen: "There is in the minds of unregenerate persons a moral impotency, which is reflected on them greatly from the will and affections, whence the mind will never receive spiritual things," A constant theme of Owen was that the natural will of man is indeed the problem. I don't care if you reject that, but it's still true, and you ruin any chance of a meaningful discussion of Reformed theology if you won't consider that point.

    Remember, the fact is, determinism of every action, while present in Calvinism, is not the main argument for it. The argument is that God can cause or allow what he wishes, and often what he allows is under the free will of the individual. If a friend dies in a plane crash, some Calvinists say God killed him. Some Calvinists don't. They would say we are mortal, man is prone to error and mistakes, and God allowed that. When men do evil, some Calvinists say God causally determined that they do it, but other Calvinists say God permissively allowed them to do what they wanted. If you choose not to engage that it's OK, but you are not engaging Calvinism as such.
     
  8. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I almost never capitalize, although I have discovered the bold type button. I could write more but don't have time right now, and I do appreciate that you try to give complete responses. I would ask though, could you please try to respond to my point that we all start out as lost sinners who could justly be damned. That is a Calvinist starting point and if you can't address that there is no sense going further. If it is true then you can begin to explain why God owes everyone some equitable "chance" at salvation. If it is false then show me. I hope you are not trying to use Ezekiel 18 as making a case that we just need to try to keep the laws of God and we will be OK. If so, we have bigger differences than Reformed theology.
     
  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    ?????????????

    WHAT ABOUT, "BECAUSE OF IT BEING IN THE BIBLE?
    "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!" John 3:7;




    The Inevitably LOST "children of the flesh", who were not Elected
    verses
    The Inevitably SAVED "children of the Promise", the Elect.


    The INDIVIDUAL "children of the flesh",
    "
    are not the children of God": = BIBLE.

    The INDIVIDUAL "children of the Promise"
    are the Elect Spiritual seed = BIBLE.


    "thou shalt be a father of many nations",
    Genesis 17:4,

    as the DIRECT RESULT of
    THE ABUNDANT NUMBER of those SAVED,
    WHO WERE;


    "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the Promise",
    Galatians 3:29,

    PLAINLY DESCRIBED HERE (AGAIN), in ROMANS 9:8;

    "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!" John 3:7;


    Romans 9:8
    "That is, They which are the children of the flesh,
    these are not the children of God:
    but the children of the Promise
    are counted for the seed."

    "That is, they which are the children of the flesh,...."
    This is an explanation of the foregoing verse, and shows,
    that by "the seed of" Abraham are meant,
    the Natural seed of Abraham,
    who are born after the flesh,
    or descend from him by carnal generation:

    "these are not the children of God; that is, not all of them,
    nor any of them, on account of their being "children of the flesh",
    or Abraham's Natural seed; for Adoption does not come this way;

    men do not commence children of God
    by their fleshly descent;
    they are not "born of blood", but of God,
    who are the sons of God:


    "but the children of the promise are counted for the seed;
    "children of the covenant", is a common phrase with the Jews;..."

    "And so they were the children of the Covenant, or Promise,
    which God made with Abraham and his Natural seed,

    respecting the land of Canaan,
    and their enjoyment of temporal good things in it;
    but they were not all of them "the children of the promise",
    which God made to Abraham and His Spiritual seed,
    whether Jews or Gentiles, respecting Spiritual and Eternal things;

    "to whom alone the Promises of God,
    being their God in a Spiritual sense,
    of Spiritual and Eternal Salvation by Christ,
    and of the Grace of the Spirit of God, and of Eternal Life belong;

    "and who are the seed
    which were Promised to Abraham by God, saying,

    "thou shalt be a father of many nations", Genesis 17:4,
    ...because these Spiritual Promises belong to them, and because
    they themselves were Promised to Abraham, as his children,
    therefore they are called the "children of the Promise":

    "...Isaac was a child of Promise,
    being Born after the Spirit, by Virtue of the Promise of God,
    through His Divine Power and Goodness,

    "when there were no ground or foundation in nature,
    for Abraham and Sarah to hope for a son;
    so these are called the "children of Promise",
    Galatians 4:28,

    "because they are BORN AGAIN,

    not through the power of nature,
    and strength of their own free will;
    they are not born of the will of the flesh,
    nor of the will of man,

    but of God,
    according to the Will of God
    and His Abundant Mercy,
    by the Word of Truth,
    through His Power,
    Spirit, and Grace;
    and by Faith Receive the Promises Made unto them;

    and are Counted and Reckoned as
    "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the Promise",
    Galatians 3:29,
    whether they be Jews, or whether they be Gentiles:
    and since now the Promises of God
    are all Made Good to these persons, (INDIVIDUALS),
    the Word of God is not without effect, or is not made void,

    by the casting off the children of the flesh, (INDIVIDUALS)
    or the carnal seed of Abraham,

    who were not "children of the Promise" in the sense now given."

    "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!" John 3:7.


    Commentary adapted from: Romans 9 Gill's Exposition

    "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!" John 3:7;
     
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    God Elected "the children of the Promise",
    or it wouldn't be POSSIBLE for God to Predict
    that Abraham would be
    "the father of many nations"

    as a result in his lineage, because out of all his descendants,
    all of them or a huge majority of them
    (percentage-wise 98.6%?)
    could have been
    "ones" who did not "get on board with God",
    the "way" this post professes that "one" may "identify in Him",
    where a lost soul CAN THEN(???) obtain Eternal Salvation(???);




    Is this suggesting that there is supposed to be somewhere
    that God Offers(???) "Christ's Life",
    for a lost soul to "accept" it,
    or not???


    I thought The Way of Salvation is the result of Being Enabled
    to Consent to Jesus' Command to "Repent and Believe the Gospel",
    by The Spiritual New Birth of The Holy Spirit, FROM ABOVE.


    Where is the notion that a lost sinner who is entirely hopeless
    and helpless, without strength, as a sinner against The Holy God,
    AND has offended God's Eternal Justice, by transgressing His Law,

    (by their Eternally punishable God-hating personal acts of sin,
    that could never be PAID OFF throughout an Infinity in Hell Fire),
    is TOLD to "get on board with God", in and of themselves,
    since God (WHEN?) has in some way
    "Offered" them "a Gift"??????


    What? Who? Where?

    WHEN?
     
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry that you have NO WAY of KNOWING
    whether a soul is SAVED or NOT. PERIOD.

    As far as your judgment goes, questioning someone's Salvation
    IS AGAINST THE BAPTIST BOARD RULES
    and Can Get You Kicked OFF, Tout de suite.


    I'm sorry that you have NO WAY of KNOWING
    whether "God does not hate, much less condemn, unborn babies!"
    PERIOD.

    There is NOTHING CONCLUSIVE
    that may be derived from
    "simple logic", regarding the issue.

    "Simple logic" must concede that God Hates sin
    and that
    "You Must Be Born Again".

    Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, was selected by God
    to be the mother of John the Baptist, the great prophet
    who would prepare the way before Jesus Christ.

    John the Baptist heard of Jesus' Conception
    and Leaped in the womb of Elizabeth.

    JOHN THE BAPTIST IS SAID TO HAVE BEEN SAVED IN THE WOMB
    and certainly, Only a Saved Human Being WOULD REJOICE
    UPON HEARING THE NEWS OF JESUS' SOON ARRIVAL AT BIRTH.

    The fact that John the Baptist HEARD the voices of his mother
    and Mary, the mother of Jesus, tells us that beyond any possible doubt
    John the Baptist was CAPABLE of HAVING HEARD THE GOSPEL,
    WHICH IS
    "THE POWER of GOD UNTO SALVATION".

    SINCE, Lost sinners from the moment of conception
    are NATURAL BORN SINNERS and ABSOLUTELY IN NO WAY
    could an unborn baby be said to be "sinless as The Holy Godhead",
    or "INNOCENT", when we are said to have be
    "conceived" "in sin".

    We not only "don't have to be taught" HOW TO to steal things
    and to tell lies, etc., when we come along and have any age on us at all,
    and then, even a baby in the womb, for example, will LIE
    and kick their mother's stomach like he or she wants out,
    long before it is safe for them to,

    "come forth from the womb speaking lies."

    This topic has been discussed in great detail many times
    here on the Baptist Board, so for you to say,

    "another point that has gone UNIVERSALLY ignored around here",
    is typically ridiculously ignorant.

    "Simple logic" WOULD, HOWEVER, inform you to leave,
    if you have to cry like a baby so much, over absolutely nothing real.

    I'm confident that when you are no longer feeling sorry for yourself here,
    that you can find somewhere else to feel sorry for yourself.

    Someone who is aware of How God Saves Souls
    will have no problem
    understanding what would be involved
    for an unborn baby to be Saved.


    = They must Hear the Gospel, = be Blessed to become cognizant
    of their Utter Absolute NEED of A SAVIOR, = and to have
    "COME TO THE END of THEMSELVES",

    = AND TO BE GIVEN
    THE GRACE of GOD to SEE THEIR PERSONAL SINS, AS BEING
    THE CAUSE of JESUS' DEATH on THE CROSS (FROM THE GOSPEL)

    = AND THEN GRANTED REPENTANCE of THEIR SINS and FAITH,
    to BELIEVE AND TRUST IN JESUS CHRIST'S DEATH, BURIAL, AND
    RESURRECTION in HIS ETERNAL VICTORY of HAVING GAINED
    ABSOLUTE SUCCESS, IN ACCOMPLISHING SALVATION FOR
    ALL THOSE FOR WHOM HE DIED, IN THEIR NEW BIRTH
    BY THE HOLY SPIRIT,

    = and that GOD ACCEPTED
    JESUS' PAYMENT
    IN THEIR PLACE, WHICH WAS PROVEN
    AND SHOWN
    AT THE TIME JESUS
    RAISED FROM THE DEAD,
    WITH THE POWER OF ETERNAL LIFE OVER DEATH ITSELF,

    JESUS HAVING BEEN TRUSTED BY GOD THE FATHER
    TO GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL THE SINNERS
    THAT GOD HAD GIVEN TO HIM, JUST AS HE HAS TOLD US.

    So, Did God Do all of those things, in John the Baptist's Salvation?

    "You Must Be Born Again." There are not Two Ways of Salvation.

    "Neither is there salvation in any other:
    for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
    whereby we must be saved."
    Acts 4:12.

    "And she shall bring forth a son,
    and thou shalt call his name JESUS:
    for he shall save his people from their sins."
    Matthew 1:21.

    "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:
    who hath declared this from ancient time?
    who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD?
    and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour;
    there is none beside me.

    "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
    for I am God, and there is none else."
    Isaiah 45:21,22.

    Biblically informed individuals would be certain to now place themselves
    in the position of SPEAKING GOD'S WORD and SPECIFICALLY
    THE OLD, OLD STORY OF JESUS AND HIS LOVE WITHIN EARSHOT
    OF THEIR UNBORN BABIES, WITH THE GOSPEL MESSAGE
    PRAYFULLY EMPOWERED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD,
    A WHOLE, WHOLE LOT.






     
    #151 Alan Gross, May 31, 2024
    Last edited: May 31, 2024
  12. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    This is a Baptist board, To me, your doctrines are closer to a Mormon or a JW than a Baptist. Not saying you are a Mormon or a JW, just that you are at least the same distance removed from the truth as they.

    you seem to be teaching that a man does not have a conscience and cannot know good and evil.


    Genesis 3:5
    For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. .

    Romans 7:18
    For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


    Romans 7:22-25
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    This above is the musings of a man before he was saved. He is not totally depraved as you define total depravity in your religion.
     
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Looks like we are continuing to march our way
    through some of the verses in Romans 9, which constantly refute
    the presuppositions contained in the theories proposed in this thread,
    which might better have been called,
    "Ignorance, Unteachableness, Obstinacy and Carelessness Cannot be Conquered any Otherwise than by the Spirit of God,"
    with regard to Romans chapter 9.


    We'll want to get to and cover in more detail,

    "the elder shall serve the younger",
    with it's true intended Biblical meaning

    and to address, (as I have to some extent several times previously),

    the dependency on an essential obsession with a misinterpretation
    and misunderstanding from fleshly thinking entirely missing the mark,
    which has been used in forming the errant presuppositions regarding;




    I will get to the meat of "the elder shall serve the younger"
    and "there are two nations in your womb",
    as to what they absolutely mean
    and what they absolutely
    DO NOT MEAN,
    moreso in the next post or so,

    along with some other associated revelations in Romans 9,
    after touching on them here again somewhat initially,
    Biblically, along the lines of what DaveXR650 astutely says here;



    So, despite their dependency upon it to serve their
    pet doctrines,
    and to demonstrate their hatred and devourer to the best of their ability
    what they determine to be the doctrines of others
    that they have simply missed by a mile, mostly by just ignoring the Bible,
    and are un-free-willing,
    to move on up into The Realm of The Holy Spirit,
    mixing them with Faith, comparing Spiritual Things with Spiritual, etc.


     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    So, the issues will be,
    "what does it actually say?",
    "what is really being prophesied about?",
    "what does the passage explicitly state?",
    and then go right on ahead repeating it out of desperation, if need be,
    "How much more explicit can it even get than that?", etc., etc., etc.

    "Explicit" is apparently a very powerful word, for masking the Truth.

    Romans 9:10
    "And not only this; but when Rebecca
    also had conceived by one,
    even by our father Isaac;"

    "And not only this,...."
    This instance of Ishmael and Isaac,
    is not the only one, proving that;
    Abraham's Natural seed,
    the children of the flesh, are not all children
    ,
    the children of God:

    (Alan's note: so, the teaching of the case of Jacob and Esau
    is presented just afterwards, below);

    "but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,
    "it was said unto her", Romans 9:12,
    being in a parenthesis, "the elder shall serve the younger".

    "The Apostle was aware, that the Jews would be ready to say,
    that the instance of
    Ishmael and Isaac was not a pertinent one;

    "since Ishmael was not born of Sarah, the lawful wife of Abraham,
    but of a bondwoman, which was the reason his rejection,

    "when Isaac was the son of Promise, by the lawful wife,
    and that "they were children of Abraham in the line of Isaac",
    and so (the Jews reasoned) "children of the Promise", as Isaac was:

    (Alan's note: And yet, they were NOT BOTH "children of Promise".
    so, now here is the teaching of the case of Jacob and Esau);


    "wherefore the Apostle proceeds to mention
    the case of Jacob and Esau
    ,
    which was not liable to any such exception;

    = "seeing they not only had the same father,
    but the same mother,
    Isaac's lawful wife;

    = "they were conceived by Rebecca at once,

    = "were in the same womb together,

    = "were twins,

    = and at first glance, if any had the preference and advantage,

    we would guess that Esau had it, being born first;

    "and yet a difference was made
    between these two by God Himself,
    and which was notified by Him to the mother of them,
    before either were born."


    In my view, the starting point for gaining a Biblical understanding
    of How God Saves Souls is exactly as DaveXR650 said there,

    and what Owen says below that he posted;

    It's called "Total Depravity" where putrefying sores and worms for people

    are Enabled by God to see the Repulsiveness of their sinful condition
    from the perspective of The Thrice Holy Eternal God of The Universe,


    Who has been Offended by their having transgressed His Laws,

    and Who MUST RESPOND TO THEIR SINS IN JUDGMENT,

    meaning that since God is Eternal,
    THE CONSEQUENCE of their sins against Him
    demand punishment that is, therefore, also ETERNAL in its EXTENT.


     
    #154 Alan Gross, May 31, 2024
    Last edited: May 31, 2024
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    SO, what is really going on, in Romans 9,
    when God speaks about,
    "the children being not yet born"?

    AND HOW DOES "the children being not yet born"
    RELATE TO, "two nations are in thy womb"?

    THEN, IS
    "ELECTION" in ROMANS 9
    SPEAKING of INDIVIDUALS BEING ELECTED TO BE SAVED
    or of "NATIONS" AND "BODIES of PEOPLE"?

    Let's start taking a more detailed look at these next few passages,
    I have adapted from: Romans 9 Gill's Exposition


    Romans 9:11
    "(For the children being not yet born,
    neither having done any good or evil,

    that the purpose of God according to election might stand,
    not of works, but of him that calleth;)"

    Now, let's SEE IF WE CAN get ahold
    of WHAT IT IS GOD IS TRULY SAYING IN THERE;


    "For the children being not yet born", Romans 9:11b.

    DO YOU SEE WHAT ROMANS 9:11b IS SAYING THERE?

    "For the children being not yet born", in Romans 9:11b,
    shows that the design of the Apostle Paul's words,
    WAS THAT HE HAD NO INTENTION OF REFERRING,
    IN ANY WAY, to THE POSTERITY
    of Jacob and Esau.

    While the subject of the previous verse, in Romans 9:10,
    concerns Jacob and Esau's CONCEPTION, here;
    "but when Rebecca also

    had conceived by one even by our father Isaac",

    then, in the language of this next verse, in Romans 9:11,
    we see that the CONCEPTION of REBECCA'S,

    has now developed to where we see JACOB and ESAU,
    THE TWO BOYS, ARE STILL IN THEIR MOTHER'S WOMB;

    where by saying, "the children being not yet born,"
    speaks of:
    the VERY INDIVIDUAL PERSONS
    of JACOB and ESAU
    being the
    intention, for Paul saying,
    "the children being not yet born."
     
    #155 Alan Gross, May 31, 2024
    Last edited: May 31, 2024
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "With regard to their birth in this:
    and though in the words of God to Rebecca,
    which are urged in favour of the other sense,


    (as the O.P. tries to assert repeatedly
    by simply stating "two nations are in thy womb", over and over,
    without the acknowledgement
    or apparent awareness of any of the remaining context).


    where it is said, "two nations are in thy womb,
    and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels,
    and the one people shall be stronger than the other people"
    ,
    as seen in Genesis 25:23;

    "yet this primarily respects
    the persons of Jacob and Esau,
    as "the roots of their respective offspring";


    "and only secondarily to their posterity,
    as just being branches that should sprout from them;


    "so, it properly regards their persons,

    "and only in an improper, figurative,
    and metonymical sense, their seed;


    "for in no other sense could "Two Nations",
    or "two manner of people" be in Rebecca's womb,

    "than that there were two persons there, (in reality)
    who would ONLY be the authors (in reality)

    of "Two Nations and people".

    "Whatever may be said for their Respective Posterity,

    taking their rise from one common father Isaac,
    or for "their being Chosen or Rejected as Nations",

    before they were in being as such,
    (which IS NOT THE SENSE OF THE PASSAGE, AS WILL BE SEEN)

    "BECAUSE, it cannot be said with any propriety,
    that "Rebecca conceived" their several offspring

    (which she DID NOT DO)
    "by one, even by our father Isaac", Romans 9:10,


    "which sense well agrees with the scope of the Apostle,

    which is to prove, that all were not Israel which were of Israel,
    and that all Abraham's Natural seed were not the children of God;


    "which he could not better exemplify,

    than in the persons of Jacob and Esau;

    "for to have instanced in the posterity of Esau,

    would have been foreign to his purpose,
    and not accord with the continuation of his discourse
    in the following verses, which entirely proceed

    upon the subject of Personal Election and Rejection,
    and with the Scriptural account
    of the personal characters of Jacob and Esau;

    "and from hence, as from many other passages,

    it may be concluded, that Predestination,

    whether to life or death, is a personal thing,
    concerns particular persons,
    and not Nations, or collective bodies of men."

     
    #156 Alan Gross, May 31, 2024
    Last edited: May 31, 2024
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "neither having done any good or evil";
    Jacob and Esau were under all considerations upon an equal foot,
    were just in the same situation and condition,
    when the one was Loved and the other Hated;


    "or in other words,
    when the one was chosen, and the other rejected;


    "they were neither of them as yet born,
    and had they been born, their birth and parentage
    could have been no reason why
    one was chose and the other not,

    because in both were in
    the same identical situation and condition,

    "nor had the one performed a good action,

    or the other an evil one;

    "so that Jacob was not Loved for his good works,
    nor Esau hated for his evil ones;

    "which confirms
    the Truth of this Doctrine of Election and Predestination

    that the objects of Predestination, whether to life or death, are alike,
    are in the same situation and condition:

    "whether they are considered in the corrupt mass, or as fallen,
    they are all equally such, so that there could not be
    any reason in them, why some should be Chosen and others Left;


    "or whether in the pure mass, antecedent to The Fall,
    and without any consideration of it,
    which is clearly signified in this passage,

    "there could be nothing in one of the boys,

    which was not in the other boy,
    that could be the Cause of such a Difference

    that God Made between the two boys,

    "so that it follows, that works neither good nor evil

    are the Causes Moving God to Predestinate,
    whether to Life or Death;

    "good works are not the Cause of Election to Eternal Life,

    for not only is it true that this Act of Distinguishing Grace,
    passed before any works were done,

    "but also these works are actually the Fruits, Effects,

    and Consequence of having been Elected
    and then inevitably Saved during the course of their Lifetime,

    "and so works CANNOT BE:
    the Causes of God's Act of Distinguishing Grace,

    in the Election of His Chosen souls to Eternal Life.

    "God does not Proceed in the order of branches of Salvation,

    as in Calling, Justification, etc., according to works, good or bad,
    and therefore it cannot be thought
    that He should Proceed

    upon this foot of considering any kind of works
    in the first step in The Act of Distinguishing Grace,

    in the Election of His Chosen souls to Eternal Life,
    and which is ascribed to His Free Grace, in opposition to works.

    "Evil works are not the Cause of the Decree of Rejection,
    for this also being as early as the Decree of Election,

    as it must unavoidably be, was before any evil works were done;
    sin is not the Cause of God's Decree,

    but of the thing Decreed, Eternal Death;

    "otherwise all the individuals in the World being equally in sin,
    must have been Rejected: it remains then,
    that not any works of men, good or bad,

    are the Cause of Predestination
    in either of its Branches, Election or Reprobation,
    but the Sovereign Will and Secret Counsel of God."
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "that the Purpose of God according to Election might stand":

    the Decree of God, which is entirely Free,
    and depends upon His Own Will and Choice,
    Stands Firm and Immutable,

    "and is not to be disannulled by Earth or Hell,

    because Election Stands not on the precarious foot of works:

    "not of works": because,

    if Election did it Stand on the precarious foot of works,
    it would NOT STAND SURE,

    "BECAUSE, Nothing is More Variable
    and Uncertain, than the Actions of men."

    "but of Him that Calleth": WHO is the Unchangeable Jehovah;

    Election Stands upon His Invariable Will and Immutable Grace,
    WHOSE "Gifts and Calling are without Repentance",
    as we may read in Romans 11:29.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thread closed due to length
     
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