Featured Does the Epistle to the Ephesians Prove the Reformed Are illogical & Unreason

Here are some terms that Reformed believers make much of and put great emphasis on from chapter 1 of the epistle to the Ephesians.

1) Grace - V 2
2) He hath chosen us - V 4
3) From before the foundation of the world v 4
4) predestinated us - V 5; 11
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Here are some terms from chapter one on which not much emphasis is given;

1. spiritual blessings
   
2. heavenly places in Christ
   
3. adoption
   
4. the glory of his grace
   
5. wherein <in grace> he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
   
6. redemption through his blood
   
7. the mystery of his will
   
8. the dispensation of the fulness of times
   
9. gather together in one all things in Christ
   
10. obtained an inheritance
    
11. the purpose of him
    
12. the counsel of his own will
    
13. who first trusted in Christ
    
14. ye also trusted
    
15. the word of truth
    
16. the gospel of your salvation
    
17. sealed
    
18. Spirit of promise,
    
19. the earnest
    
20. the redemption of the purchased possession
    
21. the church
    
22. his body

Notice in the epistle, chapter 1, who gets glory from the church of Jesus Christ. It is God the Father.

1. V 6 -To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
2. V12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
3. V 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
4. V 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
   
5. V 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

I am always looking for recurring words and phrases because I have learned that is the way many times that God affirms his trinitarian nature. It is one of his ways. It can be found over and over again in the KJV.

This epistle is about the work of the Father on our behalf by the Son through the power of the Spirit.

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
This verse assumes there are more ages after this one.
and that the church will be present in all of them highlighting the glory of God.

 

Do you even know that Reformed doctrine teaches that they, the Reformed, are chosen individually to be saved before the foundation of the world. This is before the creation of anything. It is in eternity past. Do you believe that about yourself? Was your name written in the book of life before there was even a you? Was heaven created especially for you?

I do not have to show anyone that predestination, a key doctrine of the Reformed that comes from Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 does not teach or hint that God has chosen them only over all others to be saved if one just believes the words.in the KJV. What it does show is that God the Father through counsel with the Spirit and Jesus Christ, the Godhead, has devised a purpose of making salvation available for the whole world through the redemption that is in Christ. God choses, or elects all those who the Spirit baptizes into the body of Christ when they believe because they become one with Christ, his very body, and are elect because God elected Christ. He is the head and his body is formed in time. I have already given you the symbolic teaching of this truth through Adam and Eve. This age from the cross to the day of the Lord is the age of grace and for the gentiles, who have no promises of salvation, certain customs and rules of the Jews were done away so gentiles can be saved. This is called in Ephesians "the dispensation of the grace of God." It is a mystery that requires a measure of divine revelation to understand even to the saved. It is the "mystery of Christ" the theme of this epistle.

I don't think you will understand any of this because you don't have a good Bible with the words of God in it. You often attempt to correct the God of heaven and supply your own words. It is a foolish thing to do.

God says the church of Jesus Christ glorifies the Father. How does predetermining that only a very small number gets saved and the remainder has been predetermined to the eternal lake of fire, bring glory to God the Father? If this is what you believe Ephesians teaches then I am putting you on ignore as being a man that is too unreasonable to communicate with.

God does not even choose who has a natural birth. That choice is between a man and a woman and by an act of nature, not God. His choice is to save those who are born again in Christ.

 

One point I have been making here in this thread is that two groups are being dealt with. This whole chapter 2 is making that distinction along with the verses you have posted. I am trying to reconcile the parables of Jesus and the history of the apostolic era when these scriptures were written by a man who was specifically chosen to write to gentiles and to reveal the mysteries of God. Here he is revealing the mystery of Christ, he says. It includes predestination and adoption and the dispensation of grace among other things. Paul prays two prayers in this epistle desiring that we would know these things. I am interested in knowing them.

 

The emphasis of all God's blessing for all believers in this age is that they are first, spiritual blessings, meaning they are heavenly blessings because all through this age Jesus Christ is in heaven with the Father and his body is being formed on the earth. Secondly, The blessings of God the Father are "in Christ" that is, in his body. You can see this in the repetitions of chapter 1.

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

All those who study the scriptures knows that the Spirit baptizes every believer into the body of Christ as a functioning and essential member of the body according to his own discretion.

.1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his <God the Father's> mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world <aion = age>, but also in that <aion> which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

This is all a part of the mystery of Christ and Ephesians is about the work of God in Christ. This epistle should cause us to glorify God the Father for what he has done for us in Christ.

 

I am on the attack of the Reformed Baptist's teaching of predestination having a meaning that God chose certain souls by name to be saved over a much greater number of souls he chose to damn before he created anything, including the heavens. Silliness on this order should disqualify a person from claiming to be a Baptist, or even claiming to be smart, although I know that some of you are highly educated. It just proves that the world by wisdom knew not God. I am saying this teaching by this sect is illogical and unreasonable in the context of the epistle to the Ephesians along with supporting scriptures from other letters. So far no one has accused me of taking scripture out of context or of making statements that are not true. When someone will not reason with you it goes a long way to prove they are unreasonable.

Having said that, there is at least some evidence so far in this thread that the words some of these other guys are quoting are not the same as what I am quoting and they do not say the same things. In that case we are not promoting the same God the Father and the Son he has chosen for his purpose and maybe their Bibles do teach of a God like theirs. I am quoting the KJV as if the words are true and are sensible.

 

It probably is in your Bible. If it is it makes the language of Ephesians more of a joke than serious doctrine. How does a single entity be addressed as both or twain? It also proves that huge doctrinal differences exist between translations.

 

You don't read posts. I had made that statement already in this thread.

The church of Jesus Christ was not something that was happenstance with God. It was in his eternal plans for his people from before the creation. However, the perfect will of God was not that it have a gentile character as it does now. It was to have a Jewish character and gentiles were to be added to it. You remember how in the OT under the Law the Jews were to have a kingdom but gentiles were to be accepted and to live as the Jews under their laws. One can follow the logic in the parables of Jesus where the prophecy of the time we call the apostolic era was brought to light. The perfect will of God expected the nation of Judah to recognize and except their Messiah but they refused him and even put him to death. Jesus came to reconcile the world by putting sin away by his own death as a substitute and his resurrection from the dead. While Jesus came into the world to do it, it was not his plan that his own people to put him to death. In his providence he allowed it.

Here are some OT prophecies concerning what he intended for "his people" Israel and the gentiles. Notice the wording. It is important. <written in 58 AD>

Rom 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:<of Israel>

One must accept this as truth . He is speaking of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ.

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. <Verse 8 and verse 9 gives the two principles that is the differences between the two entities in the letter to the Ephesians>

Isn't this what Paul in Ephesians said three times in chapter one that God the Father desired? It must be according to mercy because gentiles had no promises like Israel did in v 8. The mercy to the gentiles came after the cross and resurrection.
The ten tribes of Israel were a people scattered and they were foreigners in a strange land since 722 BC when God declared them as "not my people" and explained that he would have no mercy on them. However in the same breath he said in the place where he said to them "not my people" there they would be called the sons of the living God.

Anyone knows that if one is a son of God he must be born again. When Jesus Christ was raised from the dead it became possible for this to happen. If these people would have obeyed the gospel as a people and the Jews would have believed God, then all the OT prophecies would have been fulfilled in the 70 year generation of Jesus Christ and he would have established his reign over all the earth at that time. The 10 tribes being cast off from their national covenants and becoming as gentiles gave God excuse to extend the gospel message to those he had not promised to save, the gentiles. He counted his own people as gentiles and scattered them all over the world where gentiles were. When the principalities and heavenly beings saw this and understood it, they declared that it is the wisdom of God.

<See note one and consider what is said in this quote>

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people <Israel>.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people <of Israel>.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

The gospel of God can be defined as the good news, glad tidings, that God the Father has now opened the door of faith to the gentiles and will give the promise of the Spirit who is Life to any and all who will believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. I personally am depending on that to be true. I have put all my hope in it being true.

NOTE 1
Eph 3:1 For this cause <the formation of the church on it's Jewish foundation and on Christ spoken of in the previous chapter> I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The fellowship in Ephesians are the TWO entities, Jew and gentiles, that was the beginning of the formation of the temple, the body of Christ, in which the Spirit will eternally dwell in the corporate body and individually in the glorified resurrected bodies of each member

 

Then don't show your ignorance by continually asking a question that has already been answered.

And BTW, I created the op and I think I know what the topic is.

 

In the last week of the ministry of Jesus Christ to the circumcision he was in the temple in Jerusalem,<without checking my notes I think it was on what we call Wednesday, two days before he was crucified) he said this; It is historically accurate in the Acts;

Mt 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. <see note 1 >
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

1 ¶ And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Note 1 - written 28 years after the prophecy in Matthew 21.
Ro 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, < see note 2 to identify no people> and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Note 2 - No people:

Hosea 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

 

My position is not to argue with you when we are not looking at the same words. Your Bible might teach the things you present as truth on this forum, I don't know. But my Bible does not say what yours says and I am not going to fool myself and pretend it does.


You are being silly and have missed the whole point of the passages you quoted and the fact you have a mother and a dad proves there are males and females. That was not written to even hint that God does not recognize gender in the churches or Jews and gentiles. Paul wrote the following 9 years after he wrote Ga 3:28

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Galatians was written in 49 AD and Romans was written in 58 AD and Paul was still a Jew in Romans, he said. Unless you believe Paul is a liar you have certainly missed his point in Galatians.



You have built your theology on a wrong foundation and you are using a bad Bible. Jesus Christ said salvation is of the Jews. The foundation of the church of Jesus Christ was a Jewish foundation. You are deceived by your religion.