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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, May 31, 2024.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The verse, once again does not say all lost people all the time cannot understand spiritual milk, you know how Paul would speak to them so they could understand.
     
    #21 Van, Jun 3, 2024
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Now DaveG says Romans 1 says mankind as a whole cannot understand and seek God. No Dave, It does not.

    Romamns 1:17
    For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written: “]BUT THE RIGHTEOUS ONE WILL LIVE BY FAITH.”​
    Thus scripture says the gospel of Christ is revealed out of faith (whatever the lost believed before, whether Jew or Gentile) into faith ( in God the Father and God the Son whom He sent).

    2) Yes, you need to leave your mistaken beliefs and embrace the actual gospel of Christ.
     
    #22 Van, Jun 3, 2024
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Try reading Matthew 13 about the four soils. The first soil cannot understand the gospel. But that does not refer to all mankind, just to some of persons of mankind.
     
    #23 Van, Jun 3, 2024
  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You say men seek after God, the word of God says differently Rom 3:11

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
     
    #24 Brightfame52, Jun 3, 2024
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The scope of who is included under "none" is not provided by the text. For you are anyone to claim this means every lost person is simply altering scripture by addition.

    Why not address what it actually means as I have posted numerous times, why avoid discussion of the truth?


    Who are the "none" that do not understand, and what is it they do not understand. The Calvinist assumes the none refers to all the lost, but not those regenerated. Does the verse say or suggest that rewrite? Nope.

    What do those in view not understand? That by the works of the Law no flesh will by justified? Yes
    Thus the "none" refers to those who believe justification by works.
    Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!​
     
    #25 Van, Jun 4, 2024
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You say men seek after God, the word of God says differently Rom 3:11

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
     
    #26 Brightfame52, Jun 4, 2024
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree, Van,
    But if you'll re-read my post carefully, I never said that all of Romans 1 tells us that mankind as a whole does not seek after God...
    Please let me clarify:

    I see that the sames ones in view in Romans 1:18-32, are the same ones in view in the passage I listed in Romans 3:10-18.
    It starts here:

    " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"

    ...and ends here:

    " who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

    This passage in Romans 1:18-32 tells me that all of mankind are desperate, stubborn rebels with one cause...
    To live as they wish, with God not telling them how to live.
    That "living" includes, but is not limited, to sinning and to taking pleasure in it.

    That is the same group in view as the ones being described in Romans 3:10-18.


    In other words, all of us from birth to death, except God be merciful and save one of us.
     
    #27 Dave G, Jun 4, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2024
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  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I disagree, Van.
    To me it very clearly says:

    " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." ( Romans 1:16-17 ).

    In the above, I see this:

    16) Paul is not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes it.
    That tells me that the scope of "to whom" the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation for, is limited...
    To only those who actually believe it.
    That group includes both Jews and Gentiles.

    17) For therein ( encompassed by, or included in that Gospel ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith, to faith.
    As it is written ( in Hebrews 10:38 among others), the just ( those whom God justified by the shed blood of His Son ) shall live by their faith in Jesus Christ.

    So, it is not revealed "out of" faith;
    It is revealed from faith to faith...there is a difference.

    Please read it again, sir.
    I have.
    But it was all His doing, not mine.


    May God bless you, Van.
     
    #28 Dave G, Jun 4, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2024
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The scope of who is included under "none" is not provided by the text. For you are anyone to claim this means every lost person is simply altering scripture by addition.

    Why not address what it actually means as I have posted numerous times, why avoid discussion of the truth?

    Who are the "none" that do not understand, and what is it they do not understand. The Calvinist assumes the none refers to all the lost, but not those regenerated. Does the verse say or suggest that rewrite? Nope.

    What do those in view not understand? That by the works of the Law no flesh will by justified? Yes
    Thus the "none" refers to those who believe justification by works.
    Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!​
     
    #29 Van, Jun 5, 2024
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Right you did not specify any part, you cited the whole thing.

    2) Try reading Matthew 13 about the four soils. The first soil cannot understand the gospel. But that does not refer to all mankind, just to some of persons of mankind.

    3) Yes the wrath of God is revealed against all people. That does not say, nor suggest some of the people some of time do not seek God and put their "faith" in Christ. (Matthew 13 clearly teaches this truth that you seem to deny.)

    4) All people (sinners from conception) take pleasure in sin. That does not say nor suggest some of the people some of the time do not receive the gospel, such as soils, 2, 3 and 4.
     
    #30 Van, Jun 5, 2024
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, the Greek preposition translated from is "ek" and means out of or out from, thus leaving the prior faith in whatever, Judaism or Atheism, or Calvinism. The Greek preposition translated "to" is "eis" and means "into" or entering a new faith, i.e. faith in the gospel of Christ.

    The fact those made alive live by the faithfulness of Christ is not in dispute. Or that those born anew are kept by the power of God through or by means of protecting their faith. 1 Peter 1:3-5

    Once again a vague poorly translated phrase (from faith to faith) is used to pour extra biblical doctrine into the text.
     
    #31 Van, Jun 5, 2024
  12. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You say men seek after God, the word of God says differently Rom 3:11

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
     
    #32 Brightfame52, Jun 5, 2024
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The scope of who is included under "none" is not provided by the text. For you are anyone to claim this means every lost person is simply altering scripture by addition.

    Why not address what it actually means as I have posted numerous times, why avoid discussion of the truth?

    Who are the "none" that do not understand, and what is it they do not understand. The Calvinist assumes the none refers to all the lost, but not those regenerated. Does the verse say or suggest that rewrite? Nope.

    What do those in view not understand? That by the works of the Law no flesh will by justified? Yes
    Thus the "none" refers to those who believe justification by works.
    Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!
     
    #33 Van, Jun 8, 2024
  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You say men seek after God, the word of God says differently Rom 3:11

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.NT witness

    Ps 14:1-3

    The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

    3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one    . OT witness
     
    #34 Brightfame52, Jun 8, 2024
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The scope of who is included under "none" is not provided by the text. For you are anyone to claim this means every lost person is simply altering scripture by addition.

    Why not address what it actually means as I have posted numerous times, why avoid discussion of the truth?

    Who are the "none" that do not understand, and what is it they do not understand. The Calvinist assumes the none refers to all the lost, but not those regenerated. Does the verse say or suggest that rewrite? Nope.

    What do those in view not understand? That by the works of the Law no flesh will by justified? Yes
    Thus the "none" refers to those who believe justification by works.
    Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!

    Psalms 14:1-6 NASB with added clarifications

    The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
    They are corrupt, they have committed detestable acts;
    There is no one who does good.

    The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of mankind
    To see if there are any who understand,
    Who seek God.

    They (the fools) have all turned aside, together they are corrupt;
    There is no one (among the fools) who does good, not even one.

    Do all the workers of injustice not know,
    Who devour my people as they eat bread,
    And do not call upon the LORD?

    There they (those who call upon the Lord) are in great dread,
    For God is with a righteous generation.

    You would put to shame the plan of the poor,
    But the LORD is his (those who call upon the Lord) refuge.​

    As anyone who takes the time to study the concept, nothing in scripture supports the idea that all the lost are unable to seek God or trust in Christ.
     
    #35 Van, Jun 8, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2024
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You say men seek after God, the word of God says differently Rom 3:11

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.NT witness

    Ps 14:1-3

    The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

    3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one    . OT witness
     
    #36 Brightfame52, Jun 8, 2024
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The scope of who is included under "none" is not provided by the text. For you are anyone to claim this means every lost person is simply altering scripture by addition.

    Why not address what it actually means as I have posted numerous times, why avoid discussion of the truth?

    Who are the "none" that do not understand, and what is it they do not understand. The Calvinist assumes the none refers to all the lost, but not those regenerated. Does the verse say or suggest that rewrite? Nope.

    What do those in view not understand? That by the works of the Law no flesh will by justified? Yes
    Thus the "none" refers to those who believe justification by works.
    Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!

    Psalms 14:1-6 NASB with added clarifications

    The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
    They are corrupt, they have committed detestable acts;
    There is no one who does good.

    The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of mankind
    To see if there are any who understand,
    Who seek God.

    They (the fools) have all turned aside, together they are corrupt;
    There is no one (among the fools) who does good, not even one.

    Do all the workers of injustice not know,
    Who devour my people as they eat bread,
    And do not call upon the LORD?

    There they (those who call upon the Lord) are in great dread,
    For God is with a righteous generation.

    You would put to shame the plan of the poor,
    But the LORD is his (those who call upon the Lord) refuge.​

    As anyone who takes the time to study the concept, nothing in scripture supports the idea that all the lost are unable to seek God or trust in Christ.
     
    #37 Van, Jun 8, 2024
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You say men seek after God, the word of God says differently Rom 3:11

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.NT witness

    Ps 14:1-3

    The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

    3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one    . OT witness
     
    #38 Brightfame52, Jun 9, 2024
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    The natural man, void of the spirit, of course:

    14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

    "The things of the Spirit of God"; things like the gospel:

    18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1

    And unless God shines in their hearts, the devil has them:

    4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
    6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4
     
    #39 kyredneck, Jun 9, 2024
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  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Yes the natural man is unregenerate, not made alive, not sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

    2) Yes the natural man cannot understand "the things" of the Spirit of God.

    3) Does 1 Corinthians 2:14 refer to "all the things" of the Spirit of God? Nope

    4) Did Paul speak to natural mean using spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel? Yes indeed! (1 Cor. 3:1-3)

    5) God made us sinners, but we were not blinded to the milk of the gospel. Satan, and the practice of sin, does result in becoming blind to the gospel, but that does not apply to all people, only soil #1 of Matthew 13.
     
    #40 Van, Jun 9, 2024
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