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Layman's Understanding of Biblical Doctrine
- Thread starter Van
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
firstly, the Three distinct Persons, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are 100% COEQUAL in essence and Person in the Eternal Godhead
secondly, the "lowering" of Jesus Christ to the Father, is functional, and ONLY applies to His Time on earth. Read John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-8, and Hebrews 2:9. This is because Jesus Came as The Servant, and He Himself says that the Servant is not equal to His Master.
thirdly, there is no verse in the Bible, that teaches that the Holy Spirit is ever "subject" to either the Father or Jesus Christ
Each Person in the Godhead is YHWH, which means absolute equality!
CJP69
Active Member
The following were clearly not stated in a manner that intended precision and so I will try to respond to each in that light and restrict my comments to these statements as written....
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Notice the inclusion of the "and" before both the "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit". This is similar to when God calls Himself, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." He doesn't say that He's the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" but takes the time to add the extra words to emphasis the fact that each had their own faith. It's a common Jewish idiomatic way of expressing the fact that each item of a list is of equal importance.
Otherwise, the statement is true, as stated.
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.
Having said that, it is clearly biblical that God intervenes in the affairs of mankind and has orchestrated important aspects of human history. It would, however, be well beyond what the scripture can support to suggest that God has orchestrated every event of history that has ever happened or that will ever happen.
Regardless, this is a very truncated list of consequences of sin and the punishment thereof. I feel like the fact that Adam became mortal and was bared from access to the Tree of Life should have been included, not to mention the connection that exists between the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil with the law and the fact that Jesus was killed on a "tree". Of course, the point of this list was to be a brief and so there is a certain amount of picking and choosing when it comes to details.
After long study and much discussion and debate, it has been definitively concluded that the book entitled "Hebrews" was written to....
....wait for it.....
The Hebrews!
There is no longer and Jew or Gentile, Hebrew or Greek, but all of been consigned together in unbelief and we each come individually to Christ Who is our Head if we become members of His body. We are in Christ and He in us. Does Christ need a priest? NO! And neither do those who are hidden in Him, who have been clothed with His righteousness.
First of all, "but only so far as He allows" is literally a meaningless thing to say. Every single thing that happens has been "allowed" to happen by God. There is no event that could ever qualify for any other category. Saying that God allowed it is just another way of saying that it happened. As such, its inclusion in a discussion about free will implies a meaning to "free will" that does not exist.
The idea of "free will" is simply the idea that we have choices to make and that we are actually able to make them. That we ourselves can do or to do otherwise and that it we who decide which.
And, incidentally, repentance is ALWAYS an options, even if God is in the act of hardening your heart. Yes, even Pharaoh could have repented. God didn't harden his heart by sprinkling some sort of magic heart hardening agent onto Pharaoh's head. He did it by performing miracles that proved to Pharaoh and anyone else who was paying attention, that he (Pharaoh) was not a god and he always had the option of saying, "Okay fine, you're right! I'm not a god and you've got me beaten. God ahead and take the Jews and get out of here.", which he eventually did, by the way. The fact that it took ten plagues only demonstrates the level of his stubbornness and evil. Had Pharaoh not relented, God would have eventually killed him outright.
It is unfortunate that more cannot see that it's all one big house of cards though, where if you remove one card, the whole construct come crashing down flat to the floor. If God is immutable as the Calvinists teach, (which, of course He isn't) then their doctrines all follow logically, including the doctrine of irresistible grace and the rest of the TULIP doctrines.
Okay, out of time for now. I'll pick of the rest as time allows.
True but could have been more clearly stated had it followed the example of the cited scripture which states....
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Notice the inclusion of the "and" before both the "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit". This is similar to when God calls Himself, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." He doesn't say that He's the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" but takes the time to add the extra words to emphasis the fact that each had their own faith. It's a common Jewish idiomatic way of expressing the fact that each item of a list is of equal importance.
Otherwise, the statement is true, as stated.
The verse cited is talking about Israel (the nation) and, therefore, doesn't support the thrust of the statement, which is itself only vaguely connected to the concept of "God's Decree". As such, there isn't much to say about this except that it's sort of hollow and berreffed of any useful meaning.
Indeed! And....
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.
Colossians 1 doesn't merely say that God created everything but that Jesus did so and the Deuteronomy passage isn't talking about divine providence except to say that God has given us a choice to make and asks us to make it.
Having said that, it is clearly biblical that God intervenes in the affairs of mankind and has orchestrated important aspects of human history. It would, however, be well beyond what the scripture can support to suggest that God has orchestrated every event of history that has ever happened or that will ever happen.
The "i.e. his eyes were opened." portion here is confusing. It would have made more sense to simply include the fact that his eyes were opened as part of the list of things that happened as a result of Adam's eating from the Tree. As stated, it make it appear that the fact that his eyes were opened was specifically an aspect of his corruption or that the later is just another way of stating the former, which is what "i.e." means. It's just an abbreviated way of saying "in other words".
Regardless, this is a very truncated list of consequences of sin and the punishment thereof. I feel like the fact that Adam became mortal and was bared from access to the Tree of Life should have been included, not to mention the connection that exists between the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil with the law and the fact that Jesus was killed on a "tree". Of course, the point of this list was to be a brief and so there is a certain amount of picking and choosing when it comes to details.
This is the first one that is almost entirely false. It is precisely the opposite of what James taught, most especially what he specifically taught in chapter two of his epistle. It was a covenant of law and that covenant was not eternal but ended, (or more accurately was put on hold), when Israel was cut off. (See Romans 4:5, Romans 9 and Galatians 2:7-9)
Jesus is NOT our high priest! He is the High Priest for Israel and for those who believed under Israel's Kingdom gospel of law but He most definitely is not our High Priest.
After long study and much discussion and debate, it has been definitively concluded that the book entitled "Hebrews" was written to....
....wait for it.....
The Hebrews!
There is no longer and Jew or Gentile, Hebrew or Greek, but all of been consigned together in unbelief and we each come individually to Christ Who is our Head if we become members of His body. We are in Christ and He in us. Does Christ need a priest? NO! And neither do those who are hidden in Him, who have been clothed with His righteousness.
Okay, AS STATED, this is true but I've been doing this long enough to understand that this comment is loaded with meaning that the words themselves here do not convey and that is not supported in scripture.
First of all, "but only so far as He allows" is literally a meaningless thing to say. Every single thing that happens has been "allowed" to happen by God. There is no event that could ever qualify for any other category. Saying that God allowed it is just another way of saying that it happened. As such, its inclusion in a discussion about free will implies a meaning to "free will" that does not exist.
The idea of "free will" is simply the idea that we have choices to make and that we are actually able to make them. That we ourselves can do or to do otherwise and that it we who decide which.
And, incidentally, repentance is ALWAYS an options, even if God is in the act of hardening your heart. Yes, even Pharaoh could have repented. God didn't harden his heart by sprinkling some sort of magic heart hardening agent onto Pharaoh's head. He did it by performing miracles that proved to Pharaoh and anyone else who was paying attention, that he (Pharaoh) was not a god and he always had the option of saying, "Okay fine, you're right! I'm not a god and you've got me beaten. God ahead and take the Jews and get out of here.", which he eventually did, by the way. The fact that it took ten plagues only demonstrates the level of his stubbornness and evil. Had Pharaoh not relented, God would have eventually killed him outright.
I love to hear it when anyone rejects the heresies of Calvin.
It is unfortunate that more cannot see that it's all one big house of cards though, where if you remove one card, the whole construct come crashing down flat to the floor. If God is immutable as the Calvinists teach, (which, of course He isn't) then their doctrines all follow logically, including the doctrine of irresistible grace and the rest of the TULIP doctrines.
Okay, out of time for now. I'll pick of the rest as time allows.
1) One God in three Persons does not need "and" as the three Persons are distinct.
2) Isaiah 43:7, NASB:
Everyone who is called by My name,
And whom I have created for My glory,
Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
Obviously individuals and not the nation of Israel is in view. If we bother to unpack the verse you will note "called by My name" is used of (1) nations, (2) house -of Israel, 3) city, and (4) Everybody -including Gentiles. (See Acts 15:17). And whom I have created for My glory,
Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
3) We agree, God did not cause whatsoever comes to pass. Exhaustive determinism is false doctrine.
4) The consequence of Adam's sin is as stated, (1) separated from God, and (2) corrupted (predisposed to sin) indicated as "his eyes were opened.
5) James 2:5 NASB
Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters: did God not choose the poor of this world - rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6) Jesus is our High Priest, to deny this is nonsense. see Hebrews 2:17. He is High Priest for every born anew sibling of Christ.
7) God is sovereign, He causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. The idea that God allows things to happen which He does not cause allows God to not be the author of sin, and therefore is a key doctrine.
8) If God does not "allow" repentance, no one can repent.
9) We agree, effectual calling is nonsense.
.[/INDENT]
A "Layman" is someone who is a member of a religious organization (i.e our local assembly but is not a member of its professional staff, not holding a title given to the office of Pastor, Elder, nor holding a degree from a college or seminary.
The above post objects to the term on the basis that to be a layman puts the individual into a "lower class." I disagree, as any title bestowing the higher class is unbiblical. We are all siblings of Christ, a member of the Priesthood of Believers, and so the term simply says the person is making no claim of special authority. Check what I say against scripture, and if I provide useful edification, great, and if not, do not hold on to it.
1) Did anyone see the post that contained the quoted "lowering?" Neither did I
2) Did anyone see the post that contained the quoted "subject?" Neither did I.
3) Did anyone suggest the three distinct Persons of the Trinity were not equally 100% God, equally eternal, with no beginning? Nope.
4) However did anyone say the Persons were not identical, thus not equal in every respect? You bet.
Is SBG advocating that the Three Person's are equal in all respects? Who knows!!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Yet another non sequitur, not even addressing the question.
First SBG lacks the understanding to even answer the question.
Second, he claims the Bible says the Persons of the Trinity are equal in all respects, but lacks the knowledge to support the false claim with a specific reference.
All SBG seems to be accomplishing is derailing discussion of actual doctrine. Go Figure
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Yet another non sequitur, not even addressing the question.
First SBG lacks the understanding to even answer the question.
Second, he claims the Bible says the Persons of the Trinity are equal in all respects, but lacks the knowledge to support the false claim with a specific reference.
All SBG seems to be accomplishing is derailing discussion of actual doctrine. Go Figure