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A Good Question

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 8, 2024.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is the heart-felt question of one believer -
    ...do 'slacking soul-winners' result in MORE people going to hell? ...

    ...do diligent soul-winners result in MORE people going to heaven?
    The Exhaustive Determinist answer is no, God determined those going to heaven, and thus the rest not going to heaven before creation.

    The Scriptural answer is yes, diligent evangelism "hastens the day" thus more people per time interval, so the end of the age occurs sooner, resulting in less people not going to heaven.

    Two very different gospels...

    Does the fact born anew believers can "hasten the day" and earn rewards for effective ministry mean humans bring about salvation? Nope, We till the ground, we plant and we water, but God alone causes the increase in the family of God.

    Say soul winners bring 10 people to embrace the gospel, how many are saved? Unknown! Why, God could credit the faith of all 10 or reject the faith of all 10, or credit any number of faiths between none and ten.
     
    #1 Van, Jul 8, 2024
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    2 Peter 3:11-12 (NASB)
    Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

    "Holy conduct and godliness includes diligent evangelism, and therefore "hastens the coming of the day of God.

    Exhaustive Determinists try to rewrite this passage by changing the meaning of the Greek word from hurrying along to earnestly desiring. However, in all the other places in scripture where the word appears, the meaning is to hurry something along.
     
    #2 Van, Jul 8, 2024
  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No.
    Only prideful men think that they can influence who God saves.
    Yet, the Lord very pointedly tells us in John 1:13, that the ones who received Him in John 1:11-12 were not born of blood, nor of the flesh, nor of the will of men, but of God alone.

    We are also told in Romans 9 that He makes vessels of wrath, and vessels of mercy...
    Just as the potter makes vessels of clay;

    Some to honor, and some to dishonor.
    No.
    That number is known to the Lord alone, and no one else.

    We are told that there are few that be saved ( Matthew 7:14 );
    Yet we are also told that it is a great number ( Revelation 7:9 ) which no man can count.
     
    #3 Dave G, Jul 9, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2024
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  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    The actual reading of it is, ".... looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?", where "hasting unto" means, " to make hast towards".

    Greek Interlinear Layout for 2 Peter 3:12 (TR • KJV)

    See the difference between " hasting unto the coming of" and "hastening the coming of"?
    It's a big one, isn't it?
    They literally don't mean the same thing.

    So, according to the passage in 2 Peter 3, believers are "hurrying towards" the coming of the day of God... not making it happen faster than God's timing actually is.
    That's why when the Lord Jesus was asked by His disciples in Acts of the Apostles 1:6, " Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
    He told them, " It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

    That day has a set time ( at the end of the tribulation ) and place ( the Mount of Olives near Jerusalem ), and will only happen after certain events have come to pass.

    Please see Matthew 24 and Mark 13 for that timing, and Zechariah 14 for the place.
     
    #4 Dave G, Jul 9, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2024
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  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    2Pe 3:12 προσδοκῶντας Expecting G4328 V-PAP-APM καὶ And G2532 CONJ σπεύδοντας Hastening G4692 V-PAP-APM τὴν The G3588 T-ASF παρουσίαν Coming G3952 N-ASF τῆς Of The G3588 T-GSF τοῦ Of G3588 T-GSM θεοῦ God G2316 N-GSM ἡμέρας Day G2250 N-GSF δι' By Reason Of G1223 PREP ἣν Which The G3739 R-ASF οὐρανοὶ Heavens, G3772 N-NPM πυρούμενοι Being On Fire, G4448 V-PPP-NPM λυθήσονται Shall Be Dissolved, G3089 V-FPI-3P καὶ And The G2532 CONJ στοιχεῖα Elements G4747 N-NPN καυσούμενα Burning With Heat G2741 V-PPP-NPN τήκεται Shall Melt? G5080 V-PPI-3S Stephanus Textus Receptus with accents, interlinear, Strong's numbers and parsing info

    2Pe 3:12 looking for G4328 (G5723) and G2532 hastening G4692 (G5723) the coming G3952 of the day G2250 of God G2316, because of which G1223 G3739 the heavens G3772 will be dissolved G3089 (G5701), being on fire G4448 (G5746), and G2532 the elements G4747 will melt G5080 (G5743) with fervent heat G2741 (G5746)? NKJV with Strong''''s Numbers + TVM

    2Pe 3:12     expectingG4328 andG2532 hasteningG4692 theG3588 arrivalG3952 of theG3588 G3588 day of God,G2316 G2250 byG1223 whichG3739 the heavensG3772 being set on fireG4448 shall be loosed,G3089 andG2532 the elementsG4747 being destroyed by fireG2741 shall melt away?G5080
    Apostolic Bible Polyglot w/ Strong's Numbers

    Yes we do see a difference. Do you?

    See the difference between " hasting unto the coming of" and "hastening the coming of"?
    It's a big one, isn't it?
    They literally don't mean the same thing.

    So, according to the passage in 2 Peter 3, believers are able to "Hasten" the coming of the day of God. So the only logical way that we could do that is by spreading the gospel message as we are commanded to do. Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

     
    #5 Silverhair, Jul 9, 2024
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Let's deal with these claims:

    1) Did anyone say diligent soul winners "influence who God saves?" Nope. What was said:
    The Scriptural answer is yes, diligent evangelism "hastens the day" thus more people per time interval, so the end of the age occurs sooner, resulting in less people not going to heaven.​
    Thus the number of people God has determined to save will occur sooner, not the number will be increased. Who does God save? Those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Does our tilling the ground, planting or watering alter His criteria of His choice for salvation? Nope.

    2) God makes vessels (objects) of wrath fitted (prepared) to (for) destruction. Here the mistaken idea is God makes from inception some individuals destined for destruction and others from inception destined for salvation. The actual idea is God makes from inception all individuals destined for destruction, thus "vessels of wrath." Thus we were all before salvation "children of wrath. Then, when God alone transfers an individual from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son, the individual is made into an object (or vessel) of mercy. Note to be a vessel of mercy, one would have received mercy by being delivered in some way from an adverse situation. How are vessels of wrath, natural people made sinners because of the fall, thus prepared or fitted for destruction, then fitted or prepared for mercy? Christ became the means of reconciliation, and when an individual is transferred into Christ, they are washed with His blood, thus prepared for mercy.

    3) The Greek article "ho" means "the" and does not mean "into" (or unto) and so that word has been added to the text to alter the meaning of the verse. Most modern translation go with hastening the coming.
     
    #6 Van, Jul 10, 2024
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Will Calvinists attempt to misrepresent "hastening the coming of the Day" as tantamount to causing salvation? Yes of course.

    Does it? No, of course not. Tilling the ground, preparing the way, planting the word, and reinforcing the truth of the gospel provides information that the lost person decided to embrace or reject. God makes that assessment alone and either credits the person's faith as righteousness, or does not.
     
    #7 Van, Jul 10, 2024
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 15:13 NASB
    But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted.

    How do humans plant and yet if God did not plant, the resulting product will be uprooted.

    Here the idea is if humans plant other than God's seed, which only God causes to spout, by crediting the person's faith as righteousness and transferring them spiritually into Christ, then the product of the tare seed will be uprooted.
     
    #8 Van, Jul 10, 2024
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