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A Parable On Forgiveness

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Jul 15, 2024.

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  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

    24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

    25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

    26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

    27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

    28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

    29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

    30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

    31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    Comments?... Brother Glen:)
     
    #1 tyndale1946, Jul 15, 2024
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  2. David Lamb

    David Lamb Well-Known Member

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    It's a wonderful parable, but I am having a problem seeing how it relates to Calvinism and Arminianism. My fault, I expect - it's probably obvious to everybody else!
     
    #2 David Lamb, Jul 16, 2024
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    If I remember correctly, per Bro Glenn, he only post threads on the C vs A Forum.

    These days so many OPs eventually devolve into a C vs A anyway, I guess.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Jul 16, 2024
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you. Mt 7
     
    #4 kyredneck, Jul 16, 2024
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I post in the C/A Forum because it is not segregated to just Baptist but to all Christians, no matter what their denomination... Brother Glen:)
     
    #5 tyndale1946, Jul 16, 2024
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  6. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Mostly confusion.

    The scripture is clear enough:
    • “You have been forgiven, so pay it forward”.
    • “No forgiveness from you = no forgiveness for you”.
    It is the “logical consequences” that flow from those clear words that both chill and seem to contradict other scripture …

    • Is the failure in my human weakness to forgive a terrible wrong (like those that led to the death of my brothers) really more powerful than the ability of the CROSS to purchase my salvation?

    • Since we are on the C vs A forum, are we all just one wrong, suffered and unforgiven before death, away from loosing our salvation?
     
    #6 atpollard, Jul 16, 2024
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Ahhh, excellent reason, you probably told me that before and I forgot.
     
    #7 kyredneck, Jul 16, 2024
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is a hard and uncomfortable saying, but several passages state that if we do not forgive then God will not forgive us.

    Maybe those unwilling to forgive are lacking true repentance (they still have a mind set on the flesh, which is death).
     
    #8 JonC, Jul 17, 2024
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  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Maybe no angry black person can be saved until they forgive all white people.
    Maybe no angry white person can be saved until they forgive all black people.
    Maybe no Jewish person can be saved until they forgive all Palestinians.
    Maybe no Palestinian person can be saved until they forgive all Jews.

    It is not the words advocating the importance of forgiveness that are hard ... it is the consequences that logically flow from those words that cause concern and distrust in the interpretation. There are MANY passages that teach such conclusions are incorrect.
     
    #9 atpollard, Jul 17, 2024
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    17 Render to no man evil for evil. Take thought for things honorable in the sight of all men.
    18 If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men.
    19 Avenge not yourselves, beloved, but give place unto the wrath of God: for it is written, Vengeance belongeth unto me; I will recompense, saith the Lord. Ro 12

    Sorry for the loss of your brothers.
     
    #10 kyredneck, Jul 17, 2024
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not think Scripture is saying that one must forgive in order to be saved.

    It seems to me that Scripture is saying that if you are saved then you forgive.


    But you are right -

    According to the Bible anybody who does not forgive will not be forgiven.

    And the consequences are indeed hard.

    But the Way is also narrow and many calking Jesus "Lord" will hear Jesus say "I never knew you".


    I am not sure that those passages can logically fit within Calvinism or Arminianism based on how they view salvation. But maybe the best fit for those theories is that salvation yields forgiveness (we forgive because Christ died for us when we were enemies of God).



    How can we be forgiven of eternally much yet be unwilling to forgive relatively (in comparison) little?

    The answer Scripture gives is we cannot.
     
    #11 JonC, Jul 17, 2024
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    12 "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

    13 "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
    For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

    14 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses,
    your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses,
    neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
    ...

    No, only if you have higher standards than God.

    The ability of Jesus' blood on the CROSS to purchase yourt salvation
    also purchased the ability to forgive a terrible wrong
    (like those that led to the death of my brothers).

    ...
    No, as a Chosen child of The King, every lost, yet Elect soul, is IMMORTAL,
    AND CAN NOT DIE, until their Appointed Time, when God Delivers them
    from darkness and Regenerates their soul
    with The Effectual Call of The Holy Spirit
    Accompanying and Witnessing to the Verasity of God's Holy Words,
    WHICH IS ETERNAL SALVATION IN THE NEW BIRTH FROM ABOVE.

    We don't have to lean all the way out on this limb, as if it is referring to Salvation.

    That's where we look back from where we're sitting on our tree limb and then notice that there is a gap between my limb and the tree it's supposed to be connected to; then that is where we can get verses that seem to contradict other scripture

    “No forgiveness from you = no forgiveness for you” has to do with
    no relief from the pestilences in life and the tormentors of Providence.

     
    #12 Alan Gross, Jul 17, 2024
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