Featured The Son of God has always been the LORD God.

The Trinity today is The Father, the Son and the Spirit. Prior to the incarnation it was the father, the Word, and the Spirit.

 

JonC
thank you for the question. I think we all can agree that the Godhead is beyond our understanding. We have applied terms to explain it the best we can, but sometimes I think we go too far instead of just accepting what scripture provides.

In this discussion I would say yes the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three distinct persons, but I seriously doubt that such a discerption actually fully describes the God of creation.

Scripture says that in the beginning the Person we call the Son was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and lastly the Word became flesh the only begotten of the Father.

It was not my intent to confuse the issue. I simply wanted to show that we can go beyond scripture if we are not careful and come up with ideas not given in the Word of God.

I am simply trying to hold as close to scripture as I can when I say I believe that when scripture says "in the beginning was the Word" that I believe that to be literal. If you want to call the literal Word of God a person fine. I simply see it as One part of what we call the Trinity prior to the incarnation.

Now with that being said let me ask you a question. I have a son. I know how my son is my son. How is Jesus the Son since He was the Word and has always been God. Is he the Son in calling only or in what way since He has always been God the Word in eternity past. What makes Him the Son? Was it His human birth?

 

You did not answer the question. What makes Him the Son?

 

I accept scripture where He is called the Word, not the Son. In the beginning was the Word, not in the beginning was the Son.

 

I believe that the "someone other than God" needs
to make use of what the Divines call, "The Second Person of The Godhead", don't we?

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/gill/A_Body_of_Doctrinal_Divinity_-_John_Gill.pdf pg. 321.

The Distinct Personality, and Deity of the SON.

That the Son of God is a Person, and a Divine Person
distinct from the Father and the Spirit, cannot be doubted; for since his Father is a person, and he is the "express image of his person", he must be a person too; and he must be the express image of him, as he himself is a divine person, the Son of God, and truly God; and not as he is man and mediator; not as he is man, or as having an human nature, for his Father never had any, and therefore he could not be the image of him in that respect; for though man is the image of God as to some qualities in him, yet is he never called his character or express image, much less the express image of any of the persons in the Deity: nor as mediator, and in an office capacity, for his Father was never a mediator, nor in an office: it remains therefore that it must be the express image of his person, as he himself is a divine person, abstracted from any consideration of his human nature, and of his office. For as Plato says, that which is like must needs be of the same species with that to which it is like.

"The definition of a Person agrees with him: he is an individual, distinct, though not separate from the divine nature, he has in common with the Father and the Spirit; he exists of himself in that nature distinctly, and independently; is not a part of another, the whole fullness of the Godhead dwells in him;

"nor is Jesus' human nature, which he assumed in time, a part of his person, nor adds anything to his personality; but being taken up into union with his person, exists in it; he has life in himself, and is the living God; is intelligent, has understanding and will; knows himself, his Father and the Spirit, and all creatures and things, and does whatever he pleases.

Besides the distinctive, relative property, or personal relation of the Son, which is to be begotten, and which gives and makes the distinction of him, as a divine person, from the Father and Spirit, who are never said to be begotten; there are many other things which show, or make him appear to be a distinct person.

1. His being with God as the Word, (John 1:1) and with his Father as a Son, as one brought up with him, (Proverbs 8:30) clearly expresses his distinct personality; he must be a person to be with, and to be brought up with another; and he must be distinct from him with whom he is; he cannot with any propriety be said to be with himself, or to be brought up with himself.

2. His being set up from everlasting as mediator, and the covenant head of the elect; ...and these show him to be a distinct person from him who set him up, and entrusted him with all these persons and things (see Proverbs 8:23; Psalm 89:3, 28; Deuteronomy 33:3; Ephesians 1:3; 2 Timothy 1:9).

3. His being sent in the fullness of time to be the Savior of his people, and that under the character of the Son of God, shows him to be distinct from the Father, whose Son he is, and by whom he was sent; if he was not a person, but a mere name, he could not be sent; and he must be distinct from him that sent him; he who sends, and he who is sent, cannot be one and the same person; or else it must be said, that he sent himself, which is too gross and absurd to be admitted; see (Romans 8:3; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:9, 14).

4. His becoming a sacrifice, and making satisfaction for the sins of men, and so the Redeemer and Savior of them, plainly declare his distinct personality. Was he not a person, he could not offer himself a sacrifice, and he must be distinct from him to whom he offered himself; was he not a person, he could not make satisfaction, or reconcile men to God; or, in other words, make reconciliation and atonement for sin; these are personal acts, and he must be distinct from him to whom the satisfaction, reconciliation, and atonement are made; or to whom men are reconciled by him; if he has redeemed men to God by his blood, as he has, he must be a person that is the redeemer of men, and he must be distinct from him to whom he has redeemed them; for he cannot with propriety be said to reconcile and redeem them to himself; see (Eph 5:2; Hebrews 9:14; Romans 5:10, 11; Revelation 5:9).

5. His ascension to Heaven, and session at the right hand of God, show him to be a person that ascended, and is sat down; and though it was in human nature that he ascended and sat down, yet it was God in that nature "God is gone up with a shout" (Psalm 47:5). "You", the Lord God, "have ascended on high", (Psalm 68:17, 18). "The Lord said to my Lord, sit on my right hand", (Psalm 110:1) and he must be distinct from his God and our God, from his Father and our Father, to whom he ascended, and cannot be the same person with him at whose right hand he sits, (John 20:17; Hebrews 1:13).

6. His advocacy and intercession with his Father, is a plain proof of his distinct personality. He is said to be an "advocate with the Father", (1 John 2:1) and therefore must be a person to act the part of an advocate; and must be distinct from him with whom he advocates; unless it can be thought he is an advocate with himself; he himself says, "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter", meaning the Spirit of truth, as next explained (John 14:16, 17).

Now he must be distinct from the Father to whom he prays, for surely he cannot be supposed to pay to himself; and he must be distinct from the Spirit, for whom he prays. He appears in the presence of God for his people, and ever lives to make intercession for them, and must be a person to do this; and must be distinct from him in whose presence he appears, and to whom he makes intercession; for he cannot with any propriety he said to appear in his own presence for his people, and to mediate and make intercession for them with himself (see Hebrews 7:25, 9:24).

7. His judging the world at the last day, with all the circumstances thereof; gathering all nations before him, dividing them, and setting them, some on his right hand and others on his left, and passing the definitive sentence on them, prove him to be a person, a divine person, and distinct from the Father and the Spirit; for as for "the Father, he judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son", (John 5:22) nor is ever the final judgment of the world ascribed to the Spirit (see Matthew 25:31-41; Acts 10:42, 17:31).

8. It is promised to the saints that they shall be with Christ, where he is; see him as he is, and behold his glory, and shall reign with him for evermore; and he is represented as the object of their praise, wonder, and worship, to all eternity; and that as distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit; all which, and much more, show him to be a person, and to be distinct from them both; for surely he must be a person, a divine and distinct one, whom the saints shall he, live and dwell with to all eternity; and whom they shall praise, serve, and adore throughout endless ages.

(The Deity of Christ may he next considered, and proved; or, that he is a divine Person, truly and properly God. Not a made or created God, as say the Arians. He was made flesh, and made of a woman; but not made God; for then he must make himself, which is absurd, since;

"without Him was not anything made that was made;
but all things were made by Him" (John 1:3).

 

The problem with your claims you have to deny scripture, John 1:1, 14. Also, you still have not answered the question. How (in what way) was He the Son?

 

Well your Hebrew passage does not support your claim. As for the Psalm passage are you saying that the 2nd person of the Trinity was called Jesus before His incarnation? What I know for sure is that the Person we call Jesus (Yeshua) was called the Word before the incarnation.

 

It's a tough issue to come to an understanding of, and not sure anyone is going to fully understand it in this life.

Something I usually mention in this discussion is understanding that the Son of God, as the OP rightly states, is the Creator. He is the WORD (God), not simply the Word (the spoken Word), for He is defined clearly as a PERSON of the Trinity.

Secondly (and this is going to be blasphemy in the minds of some), the Christ (the Office) has a definite beginning in time, whereas the Son of God is the Eternal Creator. Roughly 2,000 years ago, God created a human body in the womb of Mary, and took up residence in that body. There are those who believe in "Christophanies," I do not, because I view that Body which was the Christ to have began in Mary. And the idea that this body appeared to men prior to the Incarnation denies the fact that the Christ, the Messiah—was prophesied to come at a certain point in History.

Paul also designates this occurrence as having a definite time:

Galatians 4:4-6
King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

All that to say, keep in mind the Incarnation was prophesied and fulfilled. God veiled His glory in that flesh, died in that flesh, and rose again in that flesh. Could God have appeared prior in that flesh? Sure, He is God. But—why would He need to?

Concerning the distinction we make in our minds concerning the God of the Old Testament and the New, it is not surprising that have trouble viewing God as the Son in the Old, but here are a few verses to consider:

Isaiah 41:4
Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Now consider the Word of the WORD:


Revelation 1

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Some might argue, "No, this is the Father speaking," however, I would point out the Title He gives Himself: the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending.

Further down we read,


10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

Again, it could be argued the voice isn't necessarily the Person John see, until ...

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


This is the Lord Jesus Christ stating He is the First and the Last. We know it is Jesus because Jesus is the One that lives, was dead, and is alive forevermore.

It is clear that it is the Son of God speaking to Israel in Isaiah.


God bless.