1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Ordain?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 31, 2024.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Often I see advocates of one doctrine or another claim God "ordained" the doctrine, leaving the actual meaning of the word "ordain" up to the reader.

    Now the KJV translates "Diatasso" (G1299) as "ordain" or "ordained" three times in their translation version, but the Greek word actually appears about 16 times in the New Testament. The three verses are 1 Corinthians 7:17 1 Corinthians 9:14 and Galatians 3:19.

    The Greek word is compound and its roots mean "through" "arrangement." The idea is something is established by decree. Other English words used in translation of our Greek word are "command, order and appoint." Another word used to describe the meaning of "diatasso" is prescribe.

    When God "ordains" something does that mean the thing is predestined? Yes God has established that something will happen according to His determinative will. Otherwise we should translate the word as "suggested."

    Another Greek word also translated as "ordain or ordained" is "Kathistemi" (G2525) and is found translated this way in Titus 1:5, Hebrews 5:1 and Hebrews 8:3. This Greek word is also compound and its roots mean "accordingly established." Translated in other various ways, the word also appears in the text about 19 additional times.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If we peruse the KJV of the New Testament we find a dozen different Greek words all translated as "ordained!" This pretty much makes sure the actual meanings of the verses have been encrypted.

    We would need to study in addition to G1299, and G2525, these other words:
    G4160, G5087, G1096, G3724, G5021, G5500, G2919, G4309, G4282 and G2680.​
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Mark 3:14 KJV
    And he ordained (G4160) twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

    Here the Greek word "Poieo" is used to indicate an action to designate someone for a purpose, to be trained (discipled) and then sent as apostles, to spread the good news (preach).
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 15:16 KJV
    Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained (G5087) you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    Here the Greek word "Tithemi" is used to indicate an action taken unilaterally to appoint someone to fulfill a purpose of God. Hence, unilaterally appointed is the contextual meaning.

    This Greek word fits the biblical definition of ordain, to establish something by determinative will. Additionally they were told, as something that would likely occur, that they would bring forth fruit, that the fruit would be eternal and that the Father will give to them whatever is asked in Christ's name, or according to Christ's purpose.
     
    #4 Van, Jul 31, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2024
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Act 1:22 KJV
    Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained (G1096) to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

    Here the Greek word "Ginomai" is used to indicate individuals must be qualified to perform as a witness of the resurrection, including the requirement to have been with the disciples the whole time of Christ's public ministry. Thus "one of these has proved himself as a witness...."
     
    #5 Van, Aug 1, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2024
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Acts 10:42 KJV
    And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained (G3724) of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

    Here the Greek word "Horizo" is used to indicated Christ was established, then and forever as Judge of those living and those who have died. Thus "this is the One who has been permanently established by God as the Judge...."
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 13:1 (NKJV)
    Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed (G5021) by God.

    Here the Greek word "Tasso" is translated by the NKJV as appointed, but the KJV renders it as "ordained." But these translation choices create a problem for many, as they understand this verse to say folks like Mr. Stalin and Mr. Hitler were appointed by God, and Christians should not "resist" their malignant efforts.

    However, "Tasso" actually is used here to indicate governing authorities are established by mutual agreement. Thus if those authorities depart from the moral strictures of God, Christians should resist.

    Here is a more literal and authentic rendering of the verse:

    "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except with God, and the authentic authorities that exist are continuing in mutual agreement with God."
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Act 14:23 KJV
    And when they had ordained (G5500) for them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

    Here the Greek word "Cherotoneo" is used to indicate that Paul and Barnabas selected Elders by a vote, a show of hands. Thus when they had elected by vote Elders in every church, and had focused their prayer through fasting, they set aside the Elders for the Lord, into whom they had previously believed.

    As a sidelight, born anew believers, selected by the assembly from those nominated by existing leaders, represents the Biblical method of Elder (Leader) selection.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Act 16:4 KJV
    And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained (G2919) of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

    Here the Greek word "Krino" is used to indicate that the Apostles and Elders located in Jerusalem had "decided upon" the ordinances those of the cities would keep.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Corinthians 2:7 KJV
    But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained (G4309) before the world unto our glory:

    Here the Greek word "Proorizo" is used to indicate that God had decided beforehand, before the ages purposed for our glory, something God had hidden until now.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ephesians 2:10 KJV
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained (G4282) that we should walk in them.

    Here the Greek word "Proetoimazo" is used to indicate that God had prepared beforehand, that born anew believers should bear His previous prepared "good works."

    For example, here is the NET version of the verse:

    Ephesians 2:10
    For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.
    What sort of "good works" did God prepare beforehand. Those by which we earn rewards as born anew believers. Some of these preparations are of course the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22-23. But what else? Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 3:8-10 that we must build upon the foundation of Christ and help bring the lost to Christ. This is the good work that brings eternal rewards!
     
    #11 Van, Aug 3, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2024
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hebrews 9:6 KJV
    Now when these things were thus ordained,(G2680) the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

    Here the Greek word "Kataskeuazo" is used to indicate that when things had been "properly prepared," the Priests commenced all their duties in the outer tabernacle.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Corinthians 9:14 KJV
    Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

    Here the Greek word "Diatasso" is used to indicate the Lord arranged through mutual agreement that those who preach the gospel should make their living from their gospel ministry.

    That is a long way from "predestined by His determinative will!" Note that in this case Paul decided to obtain part of his support from tent-making, thus not entering that mutual agreement at that time.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Another verse renders "Diatasso" (G1299) as "ordained" in the KJV, Galatians 3:19. Here is a slightly modified rendering by the NKJV, altered to retain the "ordained" translation choice:

    Galatians 3:19 NKJV [G1299 altered rendering]
    What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.

    Here we see where the adding of the Law was because of transgressions, having been arranged through mutual agreement of angels and the mediator Moses..
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Titus 15 KJV
    For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain (G2525) elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

    Here the Greek word "Kathistemi" is used to indicate the same process of selection as "Diatasso" which is by mutual agreement. Also note Acts 14:23 where Elders were nominated by leaders and then selected by a vote of members. kathistemi is a compound word whose roots mean "accordingly" "establish."

    Thus, the verse could be rendered "... and accordingly establish Elders in every city as I had you elected by member agreement.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In review, of the twelve Greek words translated as ordain or ordained, several fit the biblical definition of "ordained" and several do not, thus appear to be KJV mistranslations.

    1) "Poieo" (G4160 as used fits the biblical meaning of "ordained.

    2) "Tithemi" (G5087) as used fits the biblical meaning of ordained.

    3) "Horizo" (G3724) as used fits the biblical meaning of ordained.

    4) "Proorizo" (G4309) as used fits the biblical meaning of ordained.

    The rest of the dozen as used do not fit the meaning of established by the determinative will of God.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    One goal of bible translation is transparency, to produce a translation that reflects to the degree possible the original text, with adherence to the intended and historical word or phrase meanings, the grammatical requirements, and the contextual guidance for interpretation.

    So how might we deal with the inspired text using say four different Greek words to convey, apparently, the same meaning? Answer: By using synonyms.

    Poieo (G4160) when the intended meaning is "established by God's determinative will" we could use "predesignated."

    Horize (G3724) when the intended meaning is "established by God's determinative will, we could use "predetermined" In both of these uses (Acts 10:42 and Acts 17:31 plus Acts 2:23) Christ was designated beforehand to a task established by God.


    Proorize (G4309) when the intended meaning is "established by God's determinative will, we could use "determined beforehand."

    Tithemi (G5087) when the intended meaning is established by God's determinative will, we could use "ordained." This translation choice can be utilized in Matthew 24:51, Luke 12:46, John 15:16, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 1 Timothy 2:7, 2 Timothy 1:11, Hebrews 1:2 and 1 Peter 2:8.
     
    #17 Van, Aug 4, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2024
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Poieo" (G4160) is used to refer to a unilateral designation in at least three verses, Mark 3:14, Mark 3:16, and Hebrews 3:2. All three verses can be rendered "predesignated" to improve transparency.
     
    #18 Van, Aug 4, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2024
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Horize" (G3724) is used referring to designation beforehand at least three times, Acts 2:23, Acts 10:42 and Acts 17:31. All three verses can be rendered "predetermined" to improve transparency.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Proorizo (G4309) is used to refer to predestination or decided beforehand, in these verses, Acts 4:28, Romans 8:29, 30, Ephesians 1:5, 11, and 1 Corinthians 2:7. Consistently using predestined improves transparency.
     
    #20 Van, Aug 4, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2024
Loading...