1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Is God a Compulsionist?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Aug 6, 2024.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Years ago I sat in a waiting room, on a stormy night in a southern hospital. I faced a wall of glass, but because the waiting room was well lit, and it was night outside, what I saw was a reflection, rather than what was outside. But occasionally, lightning would strike in the area, and the night was lit up in a flash. Then the reflection would briefly disappear and I could see the trees, rain, wind, blowing leaves, the fury of God's storm. But, just as quickly, the reflection reappeared. A trick of light.

    When we look through the glass darkly, if we are full of our own light, knowing as truth through speculation what is actually speculation, we see the reflection rather than the truth. And so whenever our picture misses the mark, but we accept it, we engage unknowingly in idolatry.

    The graven image of God we carve from a mound of speculation in our minds hinders our understanding of God. On the other hand, by the careful study of God's word, we can grow not only in our understanding of God, but our efforts to become more Christ-like will be closer to the mark.

    1 Corinthians 9:19-23 NASB

    For though I am free from all people, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may gain more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under the Law; to those who are without the Law, I became as one without the Law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might gain those who are without the Law. To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak; I have become all things to all people, so that I may by all means save some.I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

    Why would Paul make such an all encompassing effort to persuade the lost, if God compels either rejection or acceptance?

    Luke 16:31 NASB
    “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    Here, a person's mindset is in view, if they are not open to God's word, they will not listen, and if they will not listen, they will not be persuaded.

    Act 17:2 - 4 NASB

    And according to Paul’s custom, he visited them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.” And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of the God-fearing Greeks and a significant number of the leading women.

    Why explain to a group if 100% had been compelled to believe or not believe? Why give evidence? Why proclaim? And how is it some were persuaded? Why didn't God use a word meaning compelled to believe?

    God attracted those born anew with His lovingkindness.
    God credited the faith of those He transferred into Christ as righteousness.
    God changed our spiritual nature when He caused us to be born anew.

    God is not a Complusionist.
     
    #1 Van, Aug 6, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2024
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Acts of the Apostles 13:43 (NET)
    When the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who were speaking with them and were persuading them to continue in the grace of God.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,847
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Agreed.
    Isaiah 1:18, Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Great point, the regenerate with sins as scarlet are able according to God's word to be guided toward salvation by discussing spiritual things.


    Invitation to Debate

    Isaiah 1:18 - 20 (NASB)

    “Come now, and let us argue your case,
    Says the LORD,

    “Though your sins are as scarlet,
    They shall become as white as snow;
    Though they are red like crimson,
    They shall be like wool.

    “If you are willing and obedient,
    You will eat the best of the land;

    But if you refuse and rebel,
    You will be devoured by the sword.”​
    For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Acts of the Apostles 18:4 (NASB)
    And Paul was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

    Note this does not say or suggest all the lost are able to be persuaded, such as Soil #1 or Matthew 13, but for the fields to be white for harvest, many of the lost are at least open to God's word.

     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Matthew 22:14 NASB as footnoted
    “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”


    Here we see that many will grasp the invitation, such as Soils # 2, 3 and 4 of Matthew 13, but not all will be chosen based on God crediting the response as righteousness.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Acts of the Apostles 19:26 NASB as footnoted
    “You see and hear that not only in Ephesus, but in almost all of Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable number of people, saying that those made with hands are no gods at all.

    Thus it is possible to turn people from the falsehoods that had believed, to the truths of God's word, not through supernatural compulsion, but by effective ministry, cultivating, planting, watering, and harvesting.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Act 26:28
    Agrippa replied to Paul, "In a short time you will persuade me to become [fn] a Christian.”
    ___________________
    Footnote: To do something to become a Christ, i.e. trust in Christ as Savior and Lord.

    Here the idea is "to induce someone to do something by persuasion.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Invitation to Debate

    Isaiah 1:18 - 20 (NASB)

    “Come now, and let us argue your case,
    Says the LORD,

    “Though your sins are as scarlet,
    They shall become as white as snow;
    Though they are red like crimson,
    They shall be like wool.

    “If you are willing and obedient,
    You will eat the best of the land;

    But if you refuse and rebel,
    You will be devoured by the sword.”
    For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

    Here the unregenerate unsaved lost, with sins as scarlet, are able according to God's word to be guided toward salvation by discussing spiritual things. This assumes those in view are "of My sheep" meaning they are open to God's word, and thus persuadable. These constitute the "fields white for harvest."
     
  10. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2021
    Messages:
    2,905
    Likes Received:
    344
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What makes it hard is that while some take it too far making God the direct cause of everything most of us inherently know better than to take all the credit for our decision for ourselves. We instinctively cringe at Jimmy Stewart's prayer below, even though his claims are true at some level.

    I don't mind the idea of "persuasion" instead of compulsion, but I'm still thinking it's the decisive factor, even if some do seem to resist it.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am not sure what you are saying so let me take a stab at it:

    Compulsion is taken too far by some people, thinking God compels everything, but most of us know, that that mistaken view is better than saying we do everything without the influence of God.

    If my effort at understanding hits near the mark, then my response is God does not compel or cause everything, He either causes or allows everything. He allows humans to sin, then compels punishment for those sins, unless He has granted mercy through Christ Jesus. When we are persuaded to put our trust fully and deeply in Christ, then God may, at His discretion, credit that faith as righteousness and put us into Christ spiritually.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The idea that if we believe all the right things with deep enough commitment, we will be saved misses the mark about what is accomplished by our belief. That view has us somehow meriting salvation, rather than accepting that our effort only throws at the foot of the cross. We still deserve eternal punishment for our sins. But salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, or does deeds (runs) to be saved, but on God alone through His the gracious and undeserved gift.

    As Romans 5:2 says our faith provided our access to God's gift, but it didn't earn or merit it.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Luke 14:23 NKJV
    “Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

    A great many of our English translations render this verse in a similar mistaken manner, indicating God approves of compulsion rather than persuasion. Part of the underlying cause for the "dark ages" appears to be this mistaken interpretation of the text.

    Here is a list of a few of the many: KJV, CSB, DARBY, ESV, NASB95, NIV, NRSV, and WEB.

    But a growing number of the modern translations render the word, urge or press upon Some of these are NASB, NET, LEB, MOUNCE, and NLT.

    Here is the NET footnote on the topic:
    Traditionally “force” or “compel,” but according to BDAG 60 s.v. ἀναγκάζω 2 this is a weakened nuance: “strongly urge/invite.” The meaning in this context is more like “persuade.”

     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Another New Testament word that appears often in the text is "Parakaleo" (G3870). This word is translated as admonish, exhort, beg, entreat, encourage, instruct and teach. So once again many of the lost are presented as instructible, persuadable, and open to God's word.

    Luke 3:18 NET
    And in this way, with many other exhortations, John [the Baptist] proclaimed good news to the people.
     
    #14 Van, Aug 8, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2024
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Act 2:40 NET
    With many other words he [Peter] testified and exhorted them saying, "Save yourselves from this perverse generation!"

    The theme through-out the New Testament is for the saved to act as witnesses, and evangelize, because the fields are white for harvest.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    2 Corinthians 5:20 NASB
    Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

    Note this verse does not read, "... as though God appeared to be making an appeal through us, we facetiously beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
     
  17. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2021
    Messages:
    2,905
    Likes Received:
    344
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes. While I don't think it is outrageous to say that God is offering a pardon and if people are too stupid or obstinate to receive it then they are justly left in their sins - if that be the case, then are you not where Stewart's character is in the clip where you could say boldly in prayer "I thank you I am not as other men are and at least had sense enough to see a good offer".
    Why then don't we do that? Maybe because we know that unlike normal "offers" in life we don't seem to be naturally equipped to make a proper decision on our own. This is indeed different and are indeed slaves to our sin and our fallen will. Thus, while we may indeed be talking about persuasion vs compulsion it is a strong persuasion and necessary enough that it is the decisive factor. And if that persuasion is the decisive thing you are not far from it being the determining thing and you are not far from being a Calvinist.
    I'm not saying you have to be a Calvinist. But I am saying that where Calvinist theology wrestles with how can God sovereignly save some and leave others yet those left are truly guilty for not responding - others are left with the fact that you are saved because you were smarter or more virtuous than the other folks. Yet no one is comfortable with really acknowledging that the free will position does logically lead to a prayer like Stewart's above. There is nothing he said that was technically untrue.
    So what I am saying is that the reality is that we are too stupid or evil to even decide for Christ without decisive help from the Holy Spirit. But the help, though decisive and sovereign, may be more of a persuasive than compulsive nature. So I agree with most of what you are saying on here.
    Here again. Are those who are persuadable under the influence of the Holy Spirit or were the Apostles looking for a few good men?
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Let me address at least some of the assertions in your post.

    1) I am not close to being a Calvinist. There is no actual support in scripture for Calvinism.

    2) The claim people who are persuaded to trust in Christ are "smarter or more virtuous than the other folks" is false. Smart people make the wrong choice all the time. The person who knows he lacks virtue is more likely to trust in Christ, for God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud. People who think they are smart, wise, virtuous are not likely to realize they are a wretch like me.

    3) Use of a phrase like "decisive help from the Holy Spirit" suggests the help could be enabling irresistible grace, rather than the drawing (attraction) of the Father. We love God because He first loved us, which means He demonstrated His love toward us while we were wretched sinners. It is not in dispute God revealed (provided for our exposure to via witnesses) the milk of the gospel to us which draws all people to Christ. The issue is whether God put His thumb on the scale and supernaturally influenced some but not others. That is just Calvinism under a false flag.

    4) God does not want us to thank Him pro-forma, but with a genuine realization that everything good comes from God.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Titus 1:7-9 NASB
    For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast to the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

    Here we see that the leaders within the body of Christ are God's stewards, those entrusted to do the work of the Lord, which includes encouraging adherence to sound doctrine, and discouraging deviation from sound doctrine.

     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Peter 5:1-2
    Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;

    Here we see that the will of God is to allow born anew servants to do voluntarily and with eagerness, what God desires for them to do. God is not a Compuisonist.
     
Loading...