Featured Salvation Is By The Interposition And Mercy Of God Alone

Your making a general disagreeing comment does not count as a specific point being made. I agree you are not wrong because I say you are, but you are wrong because the bible shows that you are.

You, being in disagreement with scripture, must show why anyone should agree with your stated view that "All of the omni doctrines are overstatements of the biblical truth."

 

I've done far more on this thread than merely voicing a disagreement and you know it.

Contradict yourself within a single sentence much?

Prove it! I dare you to try.

They are exactly that! The omni-doctrines are 100% overstatments of the biblical truth as I have already explained!

The omnis and the imms....

Immutability: The classical teaching is that God cannot change IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER! This teaching, rather than being biblical is taken directly from Plato's Republic where Socrates argues that God cannot change AT ALL because He is perfect in every conceivable way and, in whatever aspect He changes, He would change for the worse. This same argument was made by Augustine in his "Confessions" and is still made by modern Calvinists to this day, almost none of which know that they are quoting a homosexual Greek philosopher is the defense of their most sacred doctrine.

Impassibility: The classical teaching is that God does not experience emotions or any other alteration in His state of mind. This is just immutability applied to God's state of mind.

Omnipotent: The classical teaching is that God has all power - period. It does NOT permit delegation of power for that would violate immutability by implying a change in God's authority, even if only in structure.

Omniscient: The classical teaching is that God knows absolutely everything - period. It teaches that God cannot learn, that He cannot write a new song or have any thought in His head that wasn't always in His head because, again, to teach otherwise would violate immutability by implying a change in (not merely of) God's mind. (i.e. If God's knowledge changes then it is not perfect. If God's knowledge is not perfect then God is not perfect.)

Omnipresent: The classical teaching is that God exists everywhere at once - period. It does not permit God creating a place outside of His presence, it does not permit God to leave any location or any aspect of existence whatsoever for to do so would violate immutability by implying a change in God's location.

In short, all of these doctrines are the doctrine of immutability applied to different aspects of God's existence. The single over arching term that includes all of these and many more attributes of God is the term "Ontological Immutability" and it is what Luther and Calvin and Augustine before them and Aristotle before him, meant when they taught the doctrine and it is the foundational premise upon which every distinctively Calvinist doctrine is based, including their meaning of the word "sovereign", God's timeless existence, their teaching on predestination, and the whole of the TULIP doctrines. Indeed, Augustine and Luther and Calvin would have understood any such talk about different aspects of God to be a concession to our imperfect human minds anyway because God, they'd say, does not have different aspects of His existence. They'd insist that God is simple, that God does not have parts; that any attribute or "aspect" of God is identical to the whole. (See Divine Simplicity)

One single counter example is sufficient to disprove all of this pagan nonsense! One single passage of scripture showing any change in God, no matter how slight, blows all of this into dust!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

"“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore." - Jesus (Revelation 1)
​

I could quote literally dozens of verses, perhaps hundreds, and while that deals directly with Immutability, do you actually doubt that I'm able produce the same biblical evidence to prove that God doesn't know every single thing or that God isn't absolutely everywhere or that God delegates real authority to others?

 

All you have done is show why you do not agree with the pagan view of Gods' attributes. The bible does not show the pagan view and that is your mistake. You are reading a pagan view into scripture.

The 4 omnis of God refer to His qualities of being all-knowing (omniscience), all-powerful (omnipotence), ever-present everywhere (omnipresence), and perfectly good and loving (omnibenevolence).

 

No, that is what Calvinist do! Calvinists use the exact same argument that Plato records Socrates using.

Yeah, I know that. That's what I just got through going through. Are you even reading my posts?

God IS NOT all knowing!

Genesis 2:19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them.

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Jeremiah 19:5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),
​

God delegates power!

There are several biblical examples where God delegates power or authority to others. Here are a few prominent instances:

1. Moses and the Elders (Exodus 18:13-26; Numbers 11:16-17)
Delegation to Judges: In Exodus 18, Moses’ father-in-law, Jethro, advises Moses to appoint capable men as judges over the people to help him govern Israel. Moses delegates authority to these leaders to handle smaller disputes, reserving the most difficult cases for himself.
Seventy Elders: In Numbers 11:16-17, God commands Moses to gather 70 elders, and He will place His Spirit upon them, allowing them to share the burden of leadership with Moses.

2. Joseph (Genesis 41:38-40)
Joseph, sold into slavery, rises to become second in command over Egypt after Pharaoh. Pharaoh delegates authority to Joseph, and he is given power to govern Egypt, especially to prepare for the upcoming famine. Though this was Pharaoh’s delegation, Joseph’s ability to interpret dreams and manage resources came from God.

3. Prophets (Deuteronomy 18:18)
God tells Moses that He will raise up prophets to speak His words to the people: "I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and others served as God’s spokesmen, communicating His will to Israel and the nations.

4. Kings (1 Samuel 10:1; 1 Kings 3:7-12)
Saul and David: God allows the people of Israel to have a king, and He anoints Saul through the prophet Samuel (1 Samuel 10:1). Later, David is chosen by God to be king (1 Samuel 16). These kings were given authority to rule, though they were expected to follow God's laws.
Solomon: Solomon is granted divine wisdom by God to govern Israel (1 Kings 3:7-12). God delegates the authority to rule, while also endowing Solomon with special wisdom to lead.

5. The Apostles (Matthew 10:1-8; Luke 9:1-2)
In the New Testament, Jesus gives His disciples authority to cast out demons, heal the sick, and proclaim the kingdom of God (Matthew 10:1-8, Luke 9:1-2). This delegation of spiritual authority continues after His resurrection when Jesus sends His apostles to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:18-20).

6. The Church (Matthew 16:18-19; 18:18)
Jesus gives authority to His disciples, symbolized by the "keys of the kingdom," allowing them to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19; 18:18). This represents the church's delegated authority to teach, discipline, and guide believers in accordance with God’s will.

7. Gideon (Judges 6-7)
God calls Gideon to lead Israel against the Midianites. Though Gideon initially doubts his abilities, God empowers him and works through him to deliver Israel. Gideon acts under God's authority, leading a small force to victory.

Each of these examples illustrates how God chooses individuals or groups to share His authority and carry out His purposes, whether in leadership, prophecy, or evangelism.

God is NOT everywhere!

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Luke 13: 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.​

As for omnibenevolence. I do not disagree with this "doctrine" in principle but it should be understood that this is just some modern philosopher trying to say something pious by adding the prefix "omni" to anything that make God sound amazing. The term "omnibenevolence" itself does not appear in medieval texts, it started to gain prominence in more modern theological and philosophical contexts, especially in discussions of theodoicy (i.e. the problem of evil). Philosophers were debating how an all-good (omnibenevolent), all-powerful (omnipotent), and all-knowing (omniscient) God could allow evil to exist. The term was used to formalize and specify God's goodness in these debates. As such, it doesn't really count as one of the real omni-doctrines.

 

I would guess that you would accuse calvinists of cherry picking verses to support their view but you have done the same thing. None of those verses support your view unless you read your view into them.

 

No, I wouldn't accuse them of any such thing! On the contrary! Calvinism is one of the most logically consistent doctrinal systems that exist. If their premise was true, so would their doctrine be. Augustine wasn't an idiot, he was simply wrong.

And that's just the entire point! You simply do not get to pick and choose your doctrinal beliefs in an a la carte fashion and still get to claim that you got it out of the bible. The bible is truth, Silverhair! It isn't willy-nilly nonsense that's been thrown together by mere whim and personal preference. It is self-consistent and true biblical doctrine must, therefore, also be self-consistent. When you pick up a doctrine and then try to deny the doctrines upon which it is based, you commit a logical fallacy known as a stolen concept fallacy. You simply don't get to believe part of Calvinism's distinctive doctrines because they are all derived from the same premise and, more than that, they are logically tied together is several self-supporting ways. Trying to keep part and throw out the rest is like trying to use the Golden Gate bridge after having removed one of the suspension cables or like trying to talk about yellow darkness. It's inherently self-contradictory.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Stop wasting my time with this sort of stupidity. Either post an actual argument or just go away.

 

These doctrines are biblical because the bible shows them.

all-knowing (omniscience)
Psalms 147:4-5, Isaiah 46:9-10, 1 John 3:20 b

all-powerful (omnipotence)
Genesis 1:1 ff, The plagues of Exodus 7-12, Isaiah 43:13, Revelation 1:8

ever-present everywhere (omnipresence)
Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24, 1 Kings 8:27

perfectly good and loving (omnibenevolence)
John 3:16-17, Romans 5:8, 1 John 4:7-10, 2 Peter 3:9

You may disagree with what the bible shows but your disagreement does not alter that facts.

 

The Father is not the Son.
Acts of the Apostles 1:7. Mark 13:32.

Genuine Christians know God.

1 John 5:10, . . . He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: . . .

Romans 8:9, . . . if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. . . .

Romans 8:16.

1 John 5:12.

 

John 1:18, No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God the Father is not the Son.

 

WHAT? You posted more than three sentences? Are you alright?

Notice how Silverhair can't be bothered to quote the actual text of the passages he cites but leaves it for other to simply trust that these passages say what he claims they say. Let's see for ourselves, shall we?

Psalms 147:1 Praise the Lord!
For it is good to sing praises to our God;
For it is pleasant, and praise is beautiful.

2 The Lord builds up Jerusalem;
He gathers together the outcasts of Israel.
3 He heals the brokenhearted
And binds up their wounds.
4 He counts the number of the stars;
He calls them all by name.
5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.
6 The Lord lifts up the humble;
He casts the wicked down to the ground​

I'd concur with every single syllable of this passage. The words "infinite" and "exhaustive" are not synonyms, however, and so one would have to read the doctrine of omniscience into this text.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’​

God is very much able to state His intentions in advance and accomplish those plans. He has, however, repeatedly changed His mind and altered His intentions and so not only does this passage not teach the doctrine of omniscience, what it does teach is only generally true. In short, one is forced to read the doctrine of omniscience into this text.

Hmm!! I'm already detecting a pattern starting to emerge here!

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ​

This verse does not teach omnipotence at all. I can't even see how you could read omnipotence into this verse.

As for five chapters of Exodus, obviously, I cannot quote all of that here. Suffice it to say that God has power over His creation. That, however, is not what the doctrine of omnipotence is about so, once again, at best, one is forced to read the doctrine into these passages.




ever-present everywhere (omnipresence)
Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24, 1 Kings 8:27

perfectly good and loving (omnibenevolence)
John 3:16-17, Romans 5:8, 1 John 4:7-10, 2 Peter 3:9

You may disagree with what the bible shows but your disagreement does not alter that facts.[/QUOTE]

 

WHAT? You posted more than three sentences? Are you alright?

Notice how Silverhair can't be bothered to quote the actual text of the passages he cites but leaves it for other to simply trust that these passages say what he claims they say. Let's see for ourselves, shall we?

Psalms 147:1 Praise the Lord!
For it is good to sing praises to our God;
For it is pleasant, and praise is beautiful.

2 The Lord builds up Jerusalem;
He gathers together the outcasts of Israel.
3 He heals the brokenhearted
And binds up their wounds.
4 He counts the number of the stars;
He calls them all by name.
5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.
6 The Lord lifts up the humble;
He casts the wicked down to the ground​

I'd concur with every single syllable of this passage. The words "infinite" and "exhaustive" are not synonyms, however, and so one would have to read the doctrine of omniscience into this text.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’​

God is very much able to state His intentions in advance and accomplish those plans. He has, however, repeatedly changed His mind and altered His intentions and so not only does this passage not teach the doctrine of omniscience, what it does teach is only generally true. In short, one is forced to read the doctrine of omniscience into this text.

Hmm!! I'm already detecting a pattern starting to emerge here!

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

This verse does not teach omnipotence at all. I can't even see how you could read omnipotence into this verse.

As for five chapters of Exodus, obviously, I cannot quote all of that here. Suffice it to say that God has power over His creation. That, however, is not what the doctrine of omnipotence is about so, once again, at best, one is forced to read the doctrine into these passages.

Isaiah 43:13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”​

This verse teaches that God is invincible, not that He is omnipotent. There is a huge difference.

So far, we can see that, as I have been saying, the omni-doctrines are overstatements of the biblical truth.

​

Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in [a]hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.

Jeremiah 23:24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places,
So I shall not see him?” says the Lord;
“Do I not fill heaven and earth?” says the Lord.
​

God being anywhere He desires to be is what I teach, NOT what the doctrine of omnipresence teaches.

I Kings 8:27 “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!
​

This verse teaches that God is larger than His creation and that He cannot be contained by it. This is what I teach, but it is very definitely not what the doctrine of omnipresence teaches.

I'm going to ignore this because, as I said before, this isn't a real thing except within modern debates between people that I doubt are even Christians. Suffice it to say that there is nothing in God that is not good and excellent and praiseworthy.

On the contrary, I make a very specific point to agree with precisely what the bible actually says, not what I desire for it to say or have been taught to believe that it says. These doctrines are basically just pet doctrines that you like to believe in. They sound good and appear to make God seem amazing or whatever, and that's understandable. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, but we are not called to worship Aristotle's version of God but the bible's. I've asked this question before but I don't recall whether I've ever asked you specifically so forgive me if this is repetitive, but where is the benefit in believing doctrines that go well beyond what the verses that you yourself cite as proof texts actually say? Where's the profit? Why is there this fierce loyalty to doctrine that definitely do have a demonstrably extra-biblical origin? Why is it so frightening to say that God is everywhere that He want's to be? What's so scary about saying that God cannot do the rationally absurd?

I genuinely do not get it!

Is it that you do not understand what these doctrines actually teach?

 

Unresponsive. I have no idea what your point here was. Perhaps it would help if you'd post something with complete English sentences.

 

The two are One and whatever your point here is doesn't seem relevant, but it's rather hard to tell because you're too lazy to bother stating what your point actually is.

 

@CJP69,

There are at least three versions of the Biblical Trinity. Do you know those differences. Three distinct Persons who are the same God.

 

You clearly do not believe what the bible teaches.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
"This verse does not teach omnipotence at all. I can't even see how you could read omnipotence into this verse." I am surprised that you would write such a comment. That you would do so shows that you have more problems with scripture than just the doctrines.

 

Saying it doesn't make it so. My whole disupute with these doctrine is based precisely on the text of scripture itself.

This is just you quoting my own statement. God is able to create the universe but that isn't what the doctrine of omnipotence is even about. Creating the universe wouldn't have taken 10% of God's power whether He's omnipotent in the classical sense of that term or not.

 

You are living in your own bubble of self delusion. It seems you will say anything to deny scripture and support your odd view.

When you do not believe what the bible says then what you said to 37818 would seem to apply more to you and deserves the same response You do not present Christian views. Good bye