Thank you, President Trump

Agree. Hated to move this, but its focus is on the candidate and not the issue of abortion so forced to.

 

I disagree (obviously).

A faith that does not exercise voting is simply a faith that doesn't exercise voting (just like one who votes, well, votes).

It is no more impractical than desiring to change the World through secular politics.

Your mistake here is in assuming that a Christian can only work by supporting a party seeking to dominate a worldly kingdom.

This is wrong. It is illogical.

For one, you condemn Jesus, His Disciples, the Early Church, and every Christian prior to 4th Century as having no works and holding an impractical faith.

Although Jesus, the Apostles, the Early Church, and believers until the 4th century AD refused to engage the World via political systems they did have works.

Second, you demean the works of believers that are not secular or political. All of those who plant churches, who spread the gospel, who work to actually prevent abortion, who work in prisons, who feed the poor, who work with the homeless, who reach out to gay communities, who work with people addicted to drugs......you say those are not really works but supporting a political candidate is a work.


My view is that every believers should prayerfully follow their conscience.

I also believe that you commit a sin against God by calling the work of Christ, of the Apostles, of the Early Church, of Christians before the Catholic Church, of fellower workers in the field, "impractical" and encourage them to violate their conscience and sin.


There are good reasons to vote for a godly candidate and a godly party.

BUT there are also good reasons to abstain from politics.


Your declaration that only ones support for a political candidate is counted as a "work" is wrong for another reason.

Voting is not work. It is voicing support for a political party to work (whether good or bad).

In church, voting to start a community outreach is not a work. Working in that ministry is a work.



This is one reason I am very worried about the GOP. Many, like you, @MrW , have replaced doing kingdom work with voting for a political candidate. You are choosing a secular power to replace "Christ in you" (actual Christian works).

If you want to vote then vote. If you dont want to, then don't.

But stop pretending that supporting the GOP is required for one to have a practical faith. Stop pretending that voting for a political candidate is not only a work but the only work that counts.

 

For clarity-

You agree that a believer who abstains from supporting a secular political party has an impractical, useless faith that is hollow, a corpse of no present benefit?


If so, I have to ask:

What about Christians who evangelize, who teach Scripture, who preach, who feed the poor, reach out to actually prevent women from choosing abortion, who witness to and help the homeless, but abstain from supporting a secular political party?


I agree there are good reasons to vote. But there are good reasons to abstain as well (I truely believe one must pray and follow their conscience).

 

BTW...I'm glad Roe vs Wade was overturned. I wish it would have the result of reducing abortions. But even though it doesn't actually reduce the number of babies murdered, it needed to be overturned.

 

I am glad Roe vs Wade was overturned. But there are a few problems with your post.

1. Unborn children are not, unfortunately, protected under the US Constitution. One has to be "born or naturalized" (14th Ammendment).

2. You reference the Declaration of Independence, not the US Constitution.

3. Overturning Roe vs Wade did nothing, nor will it, reduce the number of abortions. In fact, abortions have slightly increased since Roe vs Wade was overturned.

The reason is changing abortion law does not change the heart of a person. The Democrats proved this as they have organizations that will fly (at no cost) women seeking abortions where prohibited to obtain an abortion free of charge. Others simoly drive across state lines, or obtain an abortion illegally.


There are non-voting (and voting) Christians who actually work to save the lives of these babies where politics cannot. We work with families to adopt, work with pregnant women to give them a better choice, care for these women, provide resources....much more work than simoly voting, but this type of work actually reduces abortion.


You have to remember that, while there are reasons to vote, there are reasons to abstain.

Some Christians will not support the GOP because they cannot in good conscience support the normalization of homosexuality or SSM. Some will not support Trump because of his chatacter. Some will not vote because they do not want to compromise their witness. Some abstain (like me) because we believe that we should work in the World but not become a part of the World to do that work.

I hope Trump wins, for the sake of our nation.

But I will not pretend that the GOP will reduce abortions. All that is accomplished is these babies are murdered out of your sight, but they are still killed.

And I cannot pretend that by supporting Trump I would be supporting Trump doing what he says he will do (to include the normalization of homosexuality).


Trump says the GOP is the party of inclusion (gay, straight, pro-choice, pro-life, Christian, Muslim, Mormon....conservative, of course). I would rather work to actually decrease abortions than support such an inclusive power to make laws that have no effect but move abortions out of sight and hear this inclusive power take credit for something so hollow - something that lacks power - and see Christians give glory to the GOP for nothing but a slogan.

 

The problem is the 14th Ammendment does not address unborn children as persons or citizens under the jurisdiction of government.

I wish this were not so. I suppose if it were changed there would be issues of citizenship at conception.

But people are people regardless of age.

 

I agree that Harris is worse on those issues.

The DNC is dangerous to the nation. It's platform is demonic. Where the DNC wears its identity as a wolf with pride the GOP is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

The fact that you label brethren who work in the Kindgom, who witness to the gay community, who work to actually reduce abortions, who feed the hungry and help the poor, who evangelize to the lost, who preach and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ, who work in prisions, who plant churches....etc....as doing no work and holding a hollow faith if they do not support a secular political party is proof that our churches have lost their First Love and become lukewarm.

You have proven the danger of the GOP to our faith in your condemnation of Christians who devoted their lives to Kingdom work yet abstain from worldly politics.

 

I am not concerned about why you, or anybody, votes.

I am, however, concerned that you declared the faith of all Christians who abstain from voting as "hollow, a corpse of no present benefit."

I am concerned that you accuse those believers works as "impractical" and "useless in this present world".

The reason is I have seen Christians who follow their conscience by abstaining from participating in secular politics working for the Kingdom in the name of Christ.

I have seen them preventing abortions through their ministry, feeding the hungry, reaching out with the gospel of Jesus, working in prison ministrues, proclaiming the gospel, planting churches, ministering to the homekess, etc.

For you to say that these things are "impractical", of no use, and their faith is "hollow, a corpse of no present benefit" is the most ungodly thing I have seen from a professing believer.

 

I do not oppose Christians at all (voting or in the military....or working for a government, or a federal contractor, or holding office).

I stated my personal convictions. I do not vote. I wouldn't serve in a combat role if I were to join the military. Those are my convictions.

But as a Christian I have voted (Republican, down the ballot) and I have served in the military in several roles (for 23 years, in the medical field and as a combat engineer).


My view is that each Christian should prayerfully consider whether ti vote and if they vote who to support...and follow their conscience.

My position is that supporting a political party is not necessary in order to be faithful and do kingdom work.

Many vote and do kingdom work. Many abstain and do kingdom work.

Each must pray and follow their conscience.


This forum is a debate. We express our views and explain what we believe.

But I believe when we declare that others should vote or should abstain against their conscience we sin because we are encouraging those people to violate their conscience.

 

Agree with you, brother. Bible gives simple guidance on issues like this. "One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God." (Romans 14:5-6)