Dune books... your thoughts?

I haven't posted in this forum in quite a while, but this is the only Christian forum I have a login to, recently I started reading the Dune book, and today started feeling uncomfortable about what I'm suspecting is its underlying message.

I recently saw the new Dune movies that came out. I did like them both (the first definitely more than the second), so I just bought the first trilogy on Amazon and started reading it on my kindle app.

I definitely like the book. I can't seem to put it down. I'm about 2/3 of the way through the first book (just called Dune).

Something has started bothering me, however--the way that religion is portrayed in the book. The Bene Gesserit is seen as spreading religion throughout the cosmos, as a way to prepare the peoples of the various planets, to be more agreeable to the BG leaders.

I have read that in the second book (which I have not yet read), that Paul takes on the role of a savior, a messiah (the book is entitled Dune Messiah), in which he is not the hero, but more of a villain.

Have any of you read at least the first two books?

What are your reactions here?

I'm ok with the idea that not every author has to believe what I believe. I wasn't expecting the author to share my views on religion. Earlier this year, I finished the Hunger Games trilogy and loved every page of it. I may or may not have the same views on war as the author, but I still loved & respected her work.

But it just seems that the premise of this book is not just different from me, but diametrically opposed to what I believe.

For reference--for a view of the series that is more positive than I appear to have---I came across a positive review of this book, from a Christian perspective. See here: The Theology of Dune

The comments that portray the Dune series in a positive light, even for a Christian, is the following (in the author's reply to Replying Poster, in the comments section of that page):

What Dune ultimately shows us is that you cannot create a great hero story without reference to the true Messiah, the Hero of heroes, the Once and Future King of kings, Jesus Christ. Christ leaves an indelible mark on our imaginations.

If I could see the book in this light, I guess I'd be just fine reading it. I'm not sure I agree with the above comments, however.

So what do you have to say about the series? Are you ok with this series' portrayal of religion? Do you disagree with this portrayal, but still enjoy the book anyways? Or have I misunderstood how the book portrays religion?

FWIW, my usual fare for reading for pleasure is murder mysteries, such as Agatha Christie or Raymond Chandler. For the first time since I don't know when, I decided to dive into the Hunger Games trilogy (the first 3) and I absolutely loved it, so after seeing the Dune movies, I thought of digging into these books as well.

Dune is one of my all time favorite books.
There are so many theological themes threaded throughout its pages. The book draws you into another world and surely makes you think!

Obviously, the author Frank Herbert, interspersed quite a bit of Arabic imagery throughout the book, it’s an arid desert world after all, it fits, don’t be offended, it’s fantasy.

The opening book, Dune, is the best. His following books in my opinion are sleepers, long on dialogue, short on action. They didn’t draw me into the drama as much as the first book.

Herbert’s son extended the series long after his father’s passing. Written along with Paul Anderson, another sci-fi author, they fleshed out Dune’s pre-history. I throughly enjoyed many of those books. The were what I call “beach reads”, light, quickly read, didn’t make you think much, The are light science fiction. They don’t have deep running theological themes but they answered questions about how the fantasy world came to be.

Of course, then there are the movies… a whole other topic. The new one is okay but they have their own agenda, apart from the original author’s.

Rob

Given that you enjoyed them so much, what is your take on its theology? My point isn't anything associated with Arabic or Islam for that matter--just that a main theme of this book (certainly not the only one) seems to be that religion equals manipulation. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the Chronicles of Narnia, Lord of the Rings, and even Hunger Games, none of which seem to have that theme.

Deacon said:

Dune is one of my all time favorite books.
There are so many theological themes threaded throughout its pages. The book draws you into another world and surely makes you think!

Obviously, the author Frank Herbert, interspersed quite a bit of Arabic imagery throughout the book, it’s an arid desert world after all, it fits, don’t be offended, it’s fantasy.

The opening book, Dune, is the best. His following books in my opinion are sleepers, long on dialogue, short on action. They didn’t draw me into the drama as much as the first book.

Herbert’s son extended the series long after his father’s passing. Written along with Paul Anderson, another sci-fi author, they fleshed out Dune’s pre-history. I throughly enjoyed many of those books. The were what I call “beach reads”, light, quickly read, didn’t make you think much, The are light science fiction. They don’t have deep running theological themes but they answered questions about how the fantasy world came to be.

Of course, then there are the movies… a whole other topic. The new one is okay but they have their own agenda, apart from the original author’s.

Rob

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Dune is a political drama, the manipulation of people and events by the characters in an attempt gain power and control.
The various characters believe they can guide history towards a goal described in the ‘Orange Catholic Bible’, a book (never fully defined) that appears to be a conglomeration of various religious prophecies and traditions.
It doesn’t work out: history has a way of destroying the schemes of man.

The book doesn’t push a reader toward a religious belief and it doesn’t answer religious questions but it brings questions to mind for one to ponder.

I find many intriguing and thought-provoking religious questions that are raised in brief portions of the book. Such as the episode where Bene Gesserate Mother uses the Gom Jabber to test Paul to “see if he is human”. What defines human?

Rob

Paul Rittman said:

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the Chronicles of Narnia, Lord of the Rings, and even Hunger Games, none of which seem to have that theme.

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C.S. Lewis’ Narnia is a children’s book with adult themes. Great series, loved it. It’s an allegory.

TLOTR’s is fantasy - one of the very few fantasies I enjoy. (My daughter even brought me a souvenir rock from the filming location of Mount Doom in New Zealand.) A well designed world-building book. Great series too.

Both Hunger Games and Dune are Science Fiction.
I’m a big fan of sci-fi (so many religious questions are imagined in sci-fi).
Hunger Games is a knock off of an earlier short story called, “The Most Dangerous Game”. IMO, its only interesting contribution was the dramatic twist at the end of the story. The following books in the series were worthless.

Dune however is a classic. It is not fantasy. It is not allegory. It’s sci-fi at its greatest; a world building sci-fi in a unique, well-imagined world; not built upon our history or culture. Pick any sci-fi list of great books and it ranks top 5 (if it isn’t at the very top).

Rob

Paul Rittman said:

I haven't posted in this forum in quite a while, but this is the only Christian forum I have a login to, recently I started reading the Dune book, and today started feeling uncomfortable about what I'm suspecting is its underlying message.

I recently saw the new Dune movies that came out. I did like them both (the first definitely more than the second), so I just bought the first trilogy on Amazon and started reading it on my kindle app.

I definitely like the book. I can't seem to put it down. I'm about 2/3 of the way through the first book (just called Dune).

Something has started bothering me, however--the way that religion is portrayed in the book. The Bene Gesserit is seen as spreading religion throughout the cosmos, as a way to prepare the peoples of the various planets, to be more agreeable to the BG leaders.

I have read that in the second book (which I have not yet read), that Paul takes on the role of a savior, a messiah (the book is entitled Dune Messiah), in which he is not the hero, but more of a villain.

Have any of you read at least the first two books?

What are your reactions here?

I'm ok with the idea that not every author has to believe what I believe. I wasn't expecting the author to share my views on religion. Earlier this year, I finished the Hunger Games trilogy and loved every page of it. I may or may not have the same views on war as the author, but I still loved & respected her work.

But it just seems that the premise of this book is not just different from me, but diametrically opposed to what I believe.

For reference--for a view of the series that is more positive than I appear to have---I came across a positive review of this book, from a Christian perspective. See here: The Theology of Dune

The comments that portray the Dune series in a positive light, even for a Christian, is the following (in the author's reply to Replying Poster, in the comments section of that page):

What Dune ultimately shows us is that you cannot create a great hero story without reference to the true Messiah, the Hero of heroes, the Once and Future King of kings, Jesus Christ. Christ leaves an indelible mark on our imaginations.

If I could see the book in this light, I guess I'd be just fine reading it. I'm not sure I agree with the above comments, however.

So what do you have to say about the series? Are you ok with this series' portrayal of religion? Do you disagree with this portrayal, but still enjoy the book anyways? Or have I misunderstood how the book portrays religion?

FWIW, my usual fare for reading for pleasure is murder mysteries, such as Agatha Christie or Raymond Chandler. For the first time since I don't know when, I decided to dive into the Hunger Games trilogy (the first 3) and I absolutely loved it, so after seeing the Dune movies, I thought of digging into these books as well.

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Seemed to me to be more akin to Islamic religion than Christianity based uon the Crusade and terminology used, and paul and Leto 2 seems to be like a satan than Jesus

JesusFan said:

Seemed to me to be more akin to Islamic religion than Christianity based uon the Crusade and terminology used, and paul and Leto 2 seems to be like a satan than Jesus

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It's sci-fi... look beyond the obvious.

Deacon said:

It's sci-fi... look beyond the obvious.

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Author seemed to be deconsructing Paul as being not a messiah, but akin to an antichrist figure

Frank Herbert wrote:

Dune (1966)
Dune Messiah (1969)
Children of Dune (1976)
God Emperor Of Dune (1981)
Chapterhouse: Dune (1985)

Where the book titles appear to deify (to make god-like) the main character, the story relates a different, more destructive tale.

Rob

Deacon said:

Frank Herbert wrote:

Dune (1966)
Dune Messiah (1969)
Children of Dune (1976)
God Emperor Of Dune (1981)
Chapterhouse: Dune (1985)

Where the book titles appear to deify (to make god-like) the main character, the story relates a different, more destructive tale.

Rob

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He seemed to do big deconstruction of the concept of a Messianic figure, or a god, as he seemed to be stating that humans need to stop submitting to either s messiah or a god, and just work things out for themselves

Deacon said:

C.S. Lewis’ Narnia is a children’s book with adult themes. Great series, loved it. It’s an allegory.

TLOTR’s is fantasy - one of the very few fantasies I enjoy. (My daughter even brought me a souvenir rock from the filming location of Mount Doom in New Zealand.) A well designed world-building book. Great series too.

Both Hunger Games and Dune are Science Fiction.
I’m a big fan of sci-fi (so many religious questions are imagined in sci-fi).
Hunger Games is a knock off of an earlier short story called, “The Most Dangerous Game”. IMO, its only interesting contribution was the dramatic twist at the end of the story. The following books in the series were worthless.

Dune however is a classic. It is not fantasy. It is not allegory. It’s sci-fi at its greatest; a world building sci-fi in a unique, well-imagined world; not built upon our history or culture. Pick any sci-fi list of great books and it ranks top 5 (if it isn’t at the very top).

Rob

Click to expand...

You are talking me into it. I was at Barnes and Noble the other day and almost picked up Dune (as it seems I'm the only one my age who didn't read it).

JonC said:

You are talking me into it. I was at Barnes and Noble the other day and almost picked up Dune (as it seems I'm the only one my age who didn't read it).

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Herberts main point seemed to be that we really get into trouble when we trust in messianic types to save us and lead us

JesusFan said:

Herberts main point seemed to be that we really get into trouble when we trust in messianic types to save us and lead us

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Historically he is right (the exception being the only true Messiah).

Politically he is always right.

I've seen the movies, and part of the new series (a prequel to Dune). But never read them....which is odd for me (I have usually read the book before seeing a movie).

JonC said:

Historically he is right (the exception being the only true Messiah).

Politically he is always right.

I've seen the movies, and part of the new series (a prequel to Dune). But never read them....which is odd for me (I have usually read the book before seeing a movie).

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What is irony to me on the dune movies would be that while Paul is normally seen as the messiah of series, he ismore akin to a muhammed and his spacecrusade, while son leto II is the actually God of dune

Hey! Nice to have you back here! About Dune, the way it shows religion in the story is really mixed. Frank Herbert shows well how power and faith mix, which can feel odd to many. Paul as a hero is not easy to read. But, it's good to see this as a way to think about people and what we believe. On the good reviews, I think all can find something they like. Maybe try to see Dune in a new way? After all, books make us think and test what we think. Cheers!