Baptist Purgatory

Carl;
You said OT saints were not saved by grace like we are?
I'll bet that is a surpirse to Noah.
Ge 6:8
¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

And I'll bet Moses is quite surprised at this new revelation also.
Ex 33:12
¶ And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

And evidently EVERYBODY in the OT who were lowly of heart found grace.

Pr 3:34
Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.


(Penknife theology strikes again!)
In HIS service;
Jim

 

Well, ain’t that typical of an ignorant bible distorter? To CONTRADICT Paul, you have now stated that the GRACE from the gospel of the grace of God given to Paul WITHIN the dispensation of the grace of God given unto him is MANIFESTED in the OT, after Paul said it was FIRST given unto him. (1 Tim.1, Eph.3,6)

You didn’t compare the references found in the OT (Buzz!), and gave your private interpretation, that it concerned SALVATION by grace through faith in the gospel.

Noah “found” grace. HE FOUND IT BY DOING RIGHT. Grace found IN THE OT is FAVOR due to something which had been done.

He was a just man, and perfect in his generations, who kept the WAY of the Lord, UNLIKE ALL OTHERS.

Check the references FOR THE INTERPRETATION.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 19:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

Genesis 33:10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

Genesis 39:4 And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand.

Genesis 47:29 And the time drew nigh that Israel must die: and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt:

Genesis 50:4 And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, If now I have found grace in your eyes, speak, I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying,

Exodus 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

Exodus 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

Exodus 33:16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Exodus 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

Numbers 32:5 Wherefore, said they, if we have found grace in thy sight, let this land be given unto thy servants for a possession, and bring us not over Jordan.

Judges 6:17 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me.

Ruth 2:10 Then she fell on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, and said unto him, Why have I found grace in thine eyes, that thou shouldest take knowledge of me, seeing I am a stranger?

1 Samuel 20:3 And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, there is but a step between me and death.

1 Samuel 27:5 And David said unto Achish, If I have now found grace in thine eyes, let them give me a place in some town in the country, that I may dwell there: for why should thy servant dwell in the royal city with thee?

2 Samuel 14:22 And Joab fell to the ground on his face, and bowed himself, and thanked the king: and Joab said, To day thy servant knoweth that I have found grace in thy sight, my lord, O king, in that the king hath fulfilled the request of his servant.

Jeremiah 31:2 Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

Again, you boys ONLY USE the Bible for your “falsehoods” which you like to purport.

You didn’t find grace. GRACE FOUND YOU. (1 Tim.1, Rom.5)

2 Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

GRACE CAME BY JESUS CHRIST, not Noah historically.

 

Interesting that you would try to disprove my assertion that Noah, et al found grace in God's sight by quoting numerous passages that SAY the person received grace in the sight of another MAN.
Can you say smokescreen? I knew you could.

Interesting you would attempt to show grace in the OT as different than Grace in the NT by assuming grace is some favor for things done yet grace by Biblical definition is unwarranted favor.

I never said that grace did not come by Jesus Christ. Just WHO do you think the Angel of the Lord IS in the OT?

Again, you have yet to show how you do NOT use penknife theology. As a matter of fact, you have done nothing but prove my assertion that you do indeed "pick-n-choose" what you will/will not believe based solely on your penknife theology. It certainly isn't based on what the Bibles SAYS.

And you REALLY gotta read what Paul said in 1 Tim. 1:5-6. Paul was NOT saying he was the first in order of time but that he was first in order of evil to have obtained mercy and grace at the hands of Christ. Just what do you think he meant when he said he was "chief" of sinners? Your own proof passage destroys you Pauline Penknife Dispensationalism. It boarders on insanity to think that Paul was the first one in all history to receive the grace of Christ as we know it. You are putting words into Paul's mouth which are not there. Context my friend, context.

It is PAUL who most vehemently preached accountability. "Faith unfeigned". "The prize" etc...

In HIS service;
Jim

 

No, no, no, bud.

Your assertion was to the FACT that God SAVED Noah by grace. That’s what your response to mine previously was. I SAID GRACE WAS FIRST REVEALED TO PAUL. He saved Noah by FAITH and WORKS. (Heb.11, 1 Peter 3) He built the ark and got through the water. He was saved by water.

The texts concerns FINDING GRACE which is DEFINED BIBLICALLY as favour due to SOMETHING WHICH THEY DID.

It is NOT unmerited favour AS YOU FIND GIVEN TO PAUL FIRST. (1 Tim. 1)

No smokescreen, JUST THE HOLY SPIRIT IS HIS SCRIPTURES, correcting your falsehood.

Talking about SneakySnake.

You put forth Noah and the others to CONTRADICT the revelation of GRACE given FIRST to Paul, which I had stated.

Don’t try to slither. I study SERPENTRY IN THE BIBLE, and know it when I find it manifested by others as you.

Biblical definition is FOUND IN THE OT verses. It is FOUND AGAIN, “differently”, under the dispensation of the grace of God given to Paul. DON”T DISTORT THE OLD TO MATCH THE NEW.

Yes, I rightly divide the word of truth, and you don’t. That’s why your heresies are so EASILY pointed out by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures.

You are showing your illiteracy now. ORDER OF EVIL?

He was FIRST, HISTORICALLY, in the pattern of those which should HEREAFTER believe on him unto everlasting life. He REVEALED the gospel of the grace to God to Paul, NOT ANYONE BEFORE HIM. Paul revealed it to others. (Eph.3, Gal.2) Grace and mercy THROUGH LONGSUFFERING came first to him UNDER THE DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD. (2 Peter 3)

He was CHIEF OF SINNERS. Not wicked son, but the FIRST. (Check the Holy Bible, which defines it as first.) Paul WAS RIGHTEOUS, for he was BLAMELESS, according to law. (Luke 1, Phil.3)

Again, you have been stumped by the Holy Spirit in the Holy Scriptures. You REJECTED the OT teaching on grace given by NUMEROUS VERSES, to distort it to match NT grace revealed by Paul. Corruption of the book will get you deeper and deeper in the pit of ignorance.

Paul didn’t preach that ANY MEMBER of the body of Christ would be SLAIN at the judgment seat of Christ IN HEAVEN, sent to hell-fire, and separated from other members of the body of Christ. That is the teaching of a DOCTRINAL DEVIL within the last days. (1 Tim.4, 2 Tim.3-4)

 

Noah found grace of God before God told him to built the Ark. Noah found grace of God means he have faith in God. Almost all people do not find grace of God during Noah's day, because they have no faith in God, they were all wicked.

More often in the Bible emphasis on faith than work.

James chapter 2 discusses faith and work. Chapter 2 makes point, many people saying, 'I have faith in God'. But they do not do work for the Lord, then therefore, their faith is vain. James point that if have faith, but no work, then faith is dead, if do work, but have no faith, the spiritual is dead. Same idea as our body with have soul/spirit is dead, same with faith is dead without work.

Work must merge with faith.

Hebrews chapter 11 is a perfect example for faith. Chapter 11 lists of the O.T. saints were saved by their faith through their ACTION. Paul tells us, we shall LIVE by faith in Romans 1:17, as it quoted from Habakkuk 2:4.

The plan of salvation by God, its never change since from the beginning to today, it still always the same plan of salvation. Throughout in the Bible emphasis us that the salvation base upon faith and repent, nothing change. The plan of salvation still always the same as past, today, and even future in the great tribulaiton till Christ comes.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

If you mean God's plan to redeem humankind from sin and death brought on by Adam, true.

However, the plan was not fully revealed from the beginning but in a progressive manner and in fact some of the major details of that plan was hidden from humanity until the appropriate time, place and appointed messenger(s).

Matthew 13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath...

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

1 Peter 1
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

DPT,

The discussion concerns GRACE as that which was manifested under the Pauline gospel. You don't believe that people are saved by GRACE. You believe that they are SAVED by faith and works.

 

Talking about SneakySnake
Don’t try to slither. I study SERPENTRY IN THE BIBLE, and know it when I find it manifested by others as you.
You are showing your illiteracy now.
DOCTRINAL DEVIL

Sir; I am done with your slanders.
You can have your penknife theology and your buddy Ruckman. You are two peas in a pod.
When you can't deal with Scripture as it is written you slander and yell and howl. Very Ruckmanesque. Not the character of the Savior you profess to know and emulate.

Interesting that you would blaspheme the Spirit of Christ with your attitude and call it Biblical.

"Again, you have been stumped by the Holy Spirit in the Holy Scriptures."

Interesting you would equate yourself with the Holy Spirit. There is NOT ONE BIT of the Holy Spirit in your constant diatribes about how you are SOOO right.

"Corruption of the book will get you deeper and deeper in the pit of ignorance."

Yes it will and you sir are well on your way.

I am done. Continue in your self righteousness and arrogance.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

It ain't slander when it's true. What about your slanders?

You CHANGED your statement evading the SUBJECT. It's clear in the post.

I dealt with all of your scripture objections, and GAVE MORE which YOU NEVER MENTIONED. Nobody yelled or howled EXCEPT YOU. I gave the VERSES while speaking.

THE LORD MENTIONED THOSE SLANDERS JIM, and you know it. Don't you act so pious, AFTER your judging.

Blaspheme the Spirit? Don't be silly kid. BECAUSE I can point to the verses, which identify your infidelity and incompetence?

The real slander is by the man who KNOWS that I didn't equate myself with the Holy Spirit. I POINTED TO THE BOOK.

Self-righteousness and arrogance?

More lying slander from you. I am a SINNER saved by grace, and put no confidence in the flesh. I am not arrogant, BUT I DO HAVE AUTHORITY.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

NOW go suck your pacifier, because I have been dealing with you FROM THE BOOK, and you can't handle it. (1 Cor.2-3)

Sayonara son.

Speaking the truth in love,
Carl

 

CHANGED
SUBJECT
GAVE MORE
YOU NEVER MENTIONED
THE LORD MENTIONED THOSE SLANDERS JIM
AFTER
BECAUSE
I POINTED TO THE BOOK.
SINNER
BUT I DO HAVE AUTHORITY.
NOW
FROM THE BOOK

 

Jim,

Why are you wasting space and time by NOT DISCUSSING the verses which were previously given to you?

You said you were done. I knew you weren't. They always come back to MANIFEST more variance.

I'll tell you why. It is the standard manner of operation for people who get tied up in the Book. It is CHANGE OF SUBJECT. It is your HOWLING AND YELLING of which you speak. It is, Let me get away from the issues, and condemn him on something else. You want to turn it to MY SPEECH! Ah yes, MOTIVES, Brother.

You have been given the verses on SPEECH. You ignore them.

Your MISHANDLING of the verses on grace was "painfully" brought out by the Scriptures themselves upon comparison. It IDENTIFIED your farsical teaching that GRACE MEANS UNMERITED FAVOUR in the OT. It does not, as you said.

The LAW operated in the OT (John 1), but it was REPLACED by the GRACE OF GOD, which came historically through Jesus Christ, which was REVEALED by Paul the apostle. He SAID it did. (Rom.11, 3)

But that makes no difference to you.

When you run into a man who can CORRECT your falsehoods by the Holy Scriptures, it ANGERS you to no end. If he says something which you don't like, YOU THROW OUT what he says and focus on his IMAGINED "hurt" of you. You call it self-righteousness and arrogance of the man. It is BIBLE BELIEF and AUTHORITY TO IDENTIFY THE FALSEHOODS OF OTHERS. I have given the verses repeatedly within both of these threads. THE PHARISEES HATED the authority of Jesus Christ which was PASSED ALONG to pastors and teachers. (Matt.7, Titus 2, Eph.4)

You have come to these threads in your "smear" mode. You have repeatedly slandered me, calling me names, IDENTIFYING my belief by various terms, when I have told you what it is called IN THE SCRIPTURES. Your methodology is to provoke, as was that of the PHARISEES and SADDUCCEES. Like I said, I have studied the Book, and the SERPENTRY of others. (Jesus DID SAY they were serpents didn't he?) YES HE DID. Paul DID CALL others, ministers of Satan, didn’t he? Why YES, he did.

You have repeatedly stated that I am unchristian, not following the Lord by using TERMS and IDEAS which he himself used, along with Paul. I have given verses, and they are ignored.

Your pious pretense, along with SLANDERING THOSE whom you do not like OR agree with doesn't bother me at all. I’m used to slander.

You are so OFFENDED by my speech, yet you WILL NOT accept the verses, which are presented on ANY SUBJECT. They are skirted for your "belief".

Lastly, you have associated me with Dr. Ruckman several times. It is due to YOUR malice and hatred of anyone who does not ACCEPT YOUR OPINION. I praise the Lord for the Doc. He set me on the road to BELIEVING the Holy Bible. He certainly will give account just as everyone.

You will also. In short, YOU ARE GUILTY of every deceitful and despicable thing that you have accused me of in this thread. It's standard operating procedure for guys like you.

I'm not going to go through ALL THE POSTS and pick out the words, terms, falsehoods, and slanders. I don't have time.

Grow up son, and quit manifesting your OWN malicious disposition towards other members of the body of Christ SIMPLY BECAUSE you are “corrected”.

Good day.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

WHEW!! Man it's hot in this here kitchen!

Pardon the pun?

You know, the "Baptist Purgatory" thread.

HankD

 

Amen Bro. Hank,

It's no small dissension and disputation. (Acts 15, Gal.2)

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

Dear Carl,

Why can't you just be kind.

Just because someone disagrees with your precepts, and consequently draws dissimilar conclusions is no reason to rail like you do. I pointed out early in this conversation that you are sometimes a jerk. That was not namecalling. That was just a simple fact.

If this precious "truth" of "pauline dispensationalism" has been entrusted to you as you say, then woe unto you if any one reasonable man fails to investigate it or study it because you start every conversation by calling him a fool, son, boy, etc. These are very derrogatory terms and not becoming of a Christian. John called Pharasies "vipers". We are not Pharasies. We are fellow Bereans at different stages of the journey. You may be ahead of us. But you also might be behind us too. How many times have you been wrong before, friend?

Also, I have never, on this board, come into contact with a man so bent on defending his harsh attitude. Most Christians, when confronted, will go out of their way to let a brother know that whatever rebuke, exhortation, or correction is done, he does in love. You are like a surgeon operating with a chain saw.

I pray that God has not already turned you over to a reprobate mind. That would be a shame, because I think if you quit trying to copy Ruckman and John the Baptist, you might have something to offer to this conversation.

Lacy


Ga 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Eph 4:2
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

2Ti 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Tit 3:2
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

Eph 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Col 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Pe 1:7
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2 Co 6
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, F15 in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

 

Lacy,

I see that you want to help your "friends" again. Ok.

You have set yourself up as ABOVE what you preach. You say JERK is not namecalling but a fact. Well how about that?

I didn't come on this board railing, nor this thread. I RESPONDED to it, along with other false charges. You can't get railing SEPARATE from identifying the falsities of others, while demonstrating their OWN pious behaviour, which is hypocritical due to their PRACTICE of the same things which ya'll accuse others of.

You better go back and LOOK at your buddies responses. It’s nothing but derogatory association, pious innuendo, judgment of motives and spirituality, and lying slander. It is TYPICAL of scripture saps.

I don't start every conversation with derogatory terms. You have embellished. (How's that?)

NOT BECOMING OF A CHRISTIAN? That's NOT TRUE, and I've showed you that before.

Some Pharisees BELIEVE brother, and teach false doctrine. (See Gal.2, Acts 15) So yes, there are false teachers among believers WHO HAVE TO BE DEALT WITH sharply. They WILL NOT like it. It will OFFEND them.

You can stop praying brother. He hasn't turned me over to a reprobate mind. What a slur and slander from one who’s trying to communicate charity. See that's that PIOUS PRETENSE that if I speak LIKE YOU, I will be "spiritual". Not in the least.

I believe it was you who OVERLOOKED the passage on my website concerning speech, when you printed "only a few choice words" to SLANDER me.

Good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple, brother. I never worry about a man who is loud, uncouth, vulgar, coarse, sharp, and rude.

I PAY ATTENTION to the "subject and doctrinal verses" of what he says. Railing goes in one ear and out the other.

You boys have a time with the Doc, don't you? He REALLY must have got on ya'll pretty good.

I FOLLOW Paul, who follows the Lord Jesus Christ. I've given the verses before. They speak authoritatively, and so do I. (1 Peter 4:17)

I don't have any buddies on this site. I don't have to defend any. I DEFEND THE BOOK, and the teachings of Pauline dispensationalism, which is RIGHT DIVISION of the word of truth
You have given me a complement previously concerning my STUDY of your teachings. You better believe that I studied them. I didn't take them lightly. . I manifest HERESIES through study. (1 Cor.11) They are WRONG, and I will continue to manifest and DEMONSTRATE the falsity of them any time I can.

I believe you know that.

There is a progression in dealing with false teachers. You don't deal with them AS you deal with one in your church who doesn't teach false doctrine, but has DIFFERENCES (Rom.14) with you.

After meekness HAS BEEN SHOWN, the rod is used. (1 Cor.2) There will be rebuke, identification, and sharp words. (2 Cor.13, 2 Tim.4, Titus 1, Rom.16, 1 Tim.1) It finally comes to Titus 3. Leave them alone.....

Now brother, I believe you know that also. You IDENTIFY, MARK, and DEMONSTRATE the heresies of Catholics, Church of Chruch, Mormons, etc.

Well I do too. I also INCLUDE "CHRISTIANS" who are out to destroy the flock through false doctrine. (Acts 20, 2 Tim.2)

I've offered plenty to this conversation. You know that also.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

I agree with Carl: PAY ATTENTION to the subject ("Baptist Purgatory") and doctrinal verses. Railing goes in one ear and out the other.

DEFEND THE BOOK, lets talk THE BOOK and stop the silly bickering!

seeking "sound doctrine" not drama,
dmw

 

I believe in baptist purgatory...it's called seminary!

 

I don't believe in "Baptist Purgatory".

 

How much longer b-4 this thing is closed?