Divine Good Pleasure

atpollard · Apr 10, 2025

Earth Wind and Fire said:
Sorry, I’m not following….in simple terms then, what are you suggesting?

How familiar are you with lapsarianism. It is a "let's split some hairs" type of question.

Lapsarianism = the belief that God planned for man to fall (the sin of Adam was always part of God's plan before God created anything).

Supra (lapsarianism) = God's first "thought" was to save some and send others to hell. God first selected the people he would save in his mind and then God created man and allowed the fall. God's SOVERIGNTY is his most important attribute.

Infra (lapsarianism) = God's first "thought" was to create man and allow him to sin, God first decided in his mind to create people and then decided to save some. God's MERCY is his most important attribute.

"Christological" Supra (lapsarianism) = God's first "thought" was to glorify Jesus. EVERYTHING God does is directed towards one goal ... the uniting of CHRIST (the groom) with the saints (his bride) because THAT brings glory to Christ! Only after God planed that union, did He plan the things needed to make that happen ... there would need to be 'vessels of honor' and 'vessels of wrath' ... that would require creating man and allowing him to sin. Everything radiates out from the FIRST GOAL (glorify Jesus through the wedding of Christ and his Church). God's GLORY is his most important attribute.

So none of this is really anything. Everyone agrees on WHAT GOD DID. The speculation is sort of "which idea came first" to God [as if we are going to figure that out].

Earth Wind and Fire · Apr 10, 2025

atpollard said:
How familiar are you with lapsarianism. It is a "let's split some hairs" type of question.

Lapsarianism = the belief that God planned for man to fall (the sin of Adam was always part of God's plan before God created anything).

Supra (lapsarianism) = God's first "thought" was to save some and send others to hell. God first selected the people he would save in his mind and then God created man and allowed the fall. God's SOVERIGNTY is his most important attribute.

Infra (lapsarianism) = God's first "thought" was to create man and allow him to sin, God first decided in his mind to create people and then decided to save some. God's MERCY is his most important attribute.

"Christological" Supra (lapsarianism) = God's first "thought" was to glorify Jesus. EVERYTHING God does is directed towards one goal ... the uniting of CHRIST (the groom) with the saints (his bride) because THAT brings glory to Christ! Only after God planed that union, did He plan the things needed to make that happen ... there would need to be 'vessels of honor' and 'vessels of wrath' ... that would require creating man and allowing him to sin. Everything radiates out from the FIRST GOAL (glorify Jesus through the wedding of Christ and his Church). God's GLORY is his most important attribute.

So none of this is really anything. Everyone agrees on WHAT GOD DID. The speculation is sort of "which idea came first" to God [as if we are going to figure that out].

I don’t believe that the father planned for human kind to fall. I believe that was a free choice in disobedience to His will.. if having to select a stance, which I don’t and can’t really do without information only He can provide… I’d veer towards Infra because I believe it’s His mercy…mercy upon mercy that comforts us as believers.

atpollard · Apr 10, 2025

Earth Wind and Fire said:
I don’t believe that the father planned for human kind to fall.

From a "logic" point, that makes Jesus' birth, death and resurrection a "Plan B" for God's creation with "no sin" being "Plan A". [shrug]

Charlie24 · Apr 10, 2025

atpollard said:
From a "logic" point, that makes Jesus' birth, death and resurrection a "Plan B" for God's creation with "no sin" being "Plan A". [shrug]

A more accurate account would be that God through His foreknowledge knew man would fall before He created him.

God gave that man the free will to believe the lie of Satan, which God had promise would bring about that fall.

Through His foreknowledge of this, Christ was foreordained to redeem man from his sin. We know this because Peter told us so.

1 Peter 1:19-20

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

You see, there was no Plan B.

atpollard · Apr 10, 2025

Charlie24 said:
A more accurate account would be that God through His foreknowledge knew man would fall before He created him.

I agree, but that places you back into "lapsarianism" since God "KNEW" that before God created man, so the question of which God planned first (create/fall) or (save/damn) since before creation God knew that the fall would happen and God "foreknew" those he would ultimately glorify.

As I stated earlier, It is not a hill that anyone should die on. It is just a THEORY about splitting hairs over which thought God had first.

@Earth Wind and Fire stated his belief that God did not plan the Fall, so I was pointing out the consequence of that idea.

Charlie24 · Apr 10, 2025

atpollard said:
I agree, but that places you back into "lapsarianism" since God "KNEW" that before God created man, so the question of which God planned first (create/fall) or (save/damn) since before creation God knew that the fall would happen and God "foreknew" those he would ultimately glorify.

As I stated earlier, It is not a hill that anyone should die on. It is just a THEORY about splitting hairs over which thought God had first.

@Earth Wind and Fire stated his belief that God did not plan the Fall, so I was pointing out the consequence of that idea.

I have problems following most all of what you say, It's probably me, I don't know. But I'll say this in response.

God said, "let us create man in our own image." That came first, and then through His foreknowledge the rest fell in order.

The rest that "fell in order" was God's redemption plan for man.

You see, after Genesis 3, the fall of man, the entire rest of the Bible is about God's redemption plan for man in action.

atpollard · Apr 10, 2025

Charlie24 said:
I have problems following most all of what you say, It's probably me, I don't know. But I'll say this in response.

God said, "let us create man in our own image." That came first, and then through His foreknowledge the rest fell in order.

The rest that "fell in order" was God's redemption plan for man.

You see, after Genesis 3, the fall of man, the entire rest of the Bible is about God's redemption plan for man in action.

The discussion is "lapsarianism" (the fall) which is not about the order that God DID THINGS [people agree on that] but the theoretical order that God first THOUGHT UP the different parts of His Plan [because Theologians have WAY too much time to think about strange things].

So this is people thinking about God sitting around getting ready to create (pre Gen 1:1) and our guess about what God thought of first.

Charlie24 · Apr 10, 2025

atpollard said:
The discussion is "lapsarianism" (the fall) which is not about the order that God DID THINGS [people agree on that] but the theoretical order that God first THOUGHT UP the different parts of His Plan [because Thelogians have WAY too much time to think about strange things].

No man can know God's thoughts, only what He has given us to understand.

Why bother with the unknown that He has kept from us?

We'll know that soon enough after the grave, or at His coming.

I agree some have to much time on their hands! Placing that time and study in futile efforts.

Earth Wind and Fire · Apr 10, 2025

Charlie24 said:
A more accurate account would be that God through His foreknowledge knew man would fall before He created him.

God gave that man the free will to believe the lie of Satan, which God had promise would bring about that fall.

Through His foreknowledge of this, Christ was foreordained to redeem man from his sin. We know this because Peter told us so.

1 Peter 1:19-20

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

You see, there was no Plan B.

It is what it is…merely my own belief system.

Earth Wind and Fire · Apr 10, 2025

atpollard said:
I agree, but that places you back into "lapsarianism" since God "KNEW" that before God created man, so the question of which God planned first (create/fall) or (save/damn) since before creation God knew that the fall would happen and God "foreknew" those he would ultimately glorify.

As I stated earlier, It is not a hill that anyone should die on. It is just a THEORY about splitting hairs over which thought God had first.

@Earth Wind and Fire stated his belief that God did not plan the Fall, so I was pointing out the consequence of that idea.

Please note that I'm not saying that God did not actually want A&E to eat the forbidden fruit….there is a part of me that believes he actually set the table for that couples curiosity to get the better of them, thus Sin. I’ve even studied Talmud and the majority of the Rabbis believe that as well, so that they (A&E) might help to save humanity, but they never ever factored in Christ as the messiah. That is vociferously denied.

So there you have it …different interpretations speculating on the causation…though no one save God knows the truth…probably none of our business.

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atpollard

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Earth Wind and Fire

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atpollard

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Charlie24

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atpollard

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