Regimentation

Silverhair said:

To put this in simple terms YES

Being dead in sin does not mean unable to reason.

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True, but we are told:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

The natural man is the man in his natural state, dead in trespasses and sins.

David Lamb said:

True, but we are told:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

The natural man is the many in his natural state, dead in trespasses and sins.

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Ah, David! You have failed to understand the wisdom of @Silverhair and @Van. They subscribe to the Humpty Dumpty school of hermeneutics.
'Dead in trespasses and sins' actually means 'Not dead in trespasses and sins,' and 'The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God' actually means 'The natural man does receive the things of the Spirit of God, but only sometimes.'

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”​

[Lewis Carroll - Alice through the Looking Glass]

Silverhair said:

Not biblical but you seem comfortable with that.

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Completely and clearly supported by scripture and I’m very comfortable with that.

In your view, the person who accepts according to their free will has something within themselves that makes them different from the one who rejects according to their freewill.

I heard someone argue that at least they had sense enough to believe. That is what you are saying, isn’t it.

What makes the difference, in your view, is one person is inherently better than the other.

In my view, the biblical view, the difference is God.

Peace to you

David Lamb said:

True, but we are told:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

The natural man is the man in his natural state, dead in trespasses and sins.

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Just as a person’s own spirit knows what is going on inside that person, so only the Spirit of God knows what is going on within God. This does not mean that man can not know the truths that God has made plain for all to see or hear. God has provided many ways for man to know about Him whether creation, the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So while the natural man can not know the mind of God he can know the truths of God regarding salvation. We see this clearly in Act_13:46-48 The Jews and Gentiles heard the gospel message preached by Paul & Barnabas but while the Jews rejected the message some of the Gentiles were over joyed and trusted in Christ.

Note the context of this verse. We need to read 1 Corinthians 2:6-14
Note the wording of 1 Corinthians 2:14 NKJV. It say “the natural man does not receive G1209 the things of the Spirit of God” it does not say that he cannot receive them. While conviction by the Holy Spirit John 16:8, and the drawing by Christ John 12:32, is extended to every sinner Mark 16:15, 1 Timothy 2:3-4 this does not overrule their free will. Many, but not all, who hear the gospel message by which they can be saved Romans 1:16 will reject it for reasons only they know.

Martin Marprelate said:

Ah, David! You have failed to understand the wisdom of @Silverhair and @Van. They subscribe to the Humpty Dumpty school of hermeneutics.
'Dead in trespasses and sins' actually means 'Not dead in trespasses and sins,' and 'The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God' actually means 'The natural man does receive the things of the Spirit of God, but only sometimes.'

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’​

​

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’​

​

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”​

[Lewis Carroll - Alice through the Looking Glass]

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@Martin Marprelate you claim to teach the word of God and yet you do not understand the word of God. You do not receive the word of God as truth but as something that you have to correct.

But since you are locked into that calvinist/reformed mindset that is understandable. You have given up trusting God's word and hold to words of Augustine, Calvin, Et all.

canadyjd said:

Completely and clearly supported by scripture and I’m very comfortable with that.

In your view, the person who accepts according to their free will has something within themselves that makes them different from the one who rejects according to their freewill.

I heard someone argue that at least they had sense enough to believe. That is what you are saying, isn’t it.

What makes the difference, in your view, is one person is inherently better than the other.

In my view, the biblical view, the difference is God.

Peace to you

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In your view man is nothing more than a puppet who's every move and thought has been determined by God. Your view makes God the author of sin and evil.

What you are saying is that man is to stupid to be able to make any choices He has to have all his thoughts and choices determined for him by God. Welcome to the wonderful world of the calvinist/reformed robot.

But the scriptures show that unregenerate men can be "devout" and "spiritual" if they so choose to be. An excellent example is Cornelius. Acts 10:1-2

It is sad really that you have such a low view of the sovereign God of creation.

God is sovereign over His sovereignty and in His sovereignty has decreed that man has the free will to trust in or reject Christ Jesus.

God “...decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it.” A. W. Tozer

@Wesley Briggman you seem surprised by my answer.
You asked a simple question "Did I, when I was dead in trespasses and sins, have free will to choose life in Christ?"

If you did not then why do you believe? That is the question you have to answer.
There really are only two options
1] God forced you to believe {gave you your faith}
2] God gave you the free will with which to evaluate the gospel message and you choose to follow Christ.

I believe by the Grace of God. The Holy Spirit removed the scales from my spiritual eyes, revealing to me my sinful condition and my need of a Savior, as He did with Saul.

(Act 9:17 KJV) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
(Act 9:18 KJV) And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

(Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

(Rom 11:6 KJV) And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If, as you believe, I choose to be a child of God by my will, that would constitute "works", thereby negating God's grace and not accepting my salvation as a gift from God.

(1Co 2:14 KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

When I was dead in my trespasses and sin, I had no spiritual discernment revealing to me my need for a Savior.

Praise God for His grace to me!

Silverhair said:

In your view man is nothing more than a puppet who's every move and thought has been determined by God. Your view makes God the author of sin and evil.

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That is not my view, but a distortion of my view

Silverhair said:

What you are saying is that man is to stupid to be able to make any choices He has to have all his thoughts and choices determined for him by God. Welcome to the wonderful world of the calvinist/reformed robot.

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That is not my view, but a distortion of my view

Silverhair said:

But the scriptures show that unregenerate men can be "devout" and "spiritual" if they so choose to be. An excellent example is Cornelius. Acts 10:1-2…..

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Cornelius was a “God-fearing Gentile”, according to Jewish beliefs, but not saved until Peter preached Jesus to him. Peter preached to him because GOD told him to go preach to him. So, your your example of Cornelius proves my beliefs and disproves yours.

We disagree, and you have now returned to the worn out false statements about what I believe.

Peace to you

canadyjd said:

That is not my view, but a distortion of my view

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You say you hold to the DoG/TULIP so sorry old boy but it is just what your view does show.

canadyjd said:

That is not my view, but a distortion of my view

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You keep saying that man can't understand the gospel message so why is that
1] God made it impossible for him to understand which goes against what God has said
2] the man is just not bright enough to understand the gospel message.

Now I know you will say he just did not want to trust in God but then that would require that he understood what the gospel message meant.

canadyjd said:

Cornelius was a “God-fearing Gentile”, according to Jewish beliefs, but not saved until Peter preached Jesus to him. Peter preached to him because GOD told him to go preach to him. So, your your example of Cornelius proves my beliefs and disproves yours.

We disagree, and you have now returned to the worn out false statements about what I believe.

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The scriptures show that unregenerate men can be "devout" and "spiritual" if they so choose to be.

That goes right against your view that man cannot understand the things of God.

Cornelius worshiped God so sorry old boy you have come up short once again.

You do remember what Eph 1:13 says don't you. Hear the gospel believe the gospel and you will be saved. Or even Eph 2:8 By grace you are saved through faith. Cornelius heard the message and believed. Read Acts 10:34-45 and perhaps it will clear up some of your misunderstanding.

Are you now saying you do not hold to the DoG/TULIP?

Silverhair said:

You say you hold to the DoG/TULIP so sorry old boy but it is just what your view does show.

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You seem too keen on telling other people here what they believe. You wrote: "In your view man is nothing more than a puppet who's every move and thought has been determined by God. Your view makes God the author of sin and evil." That is just not true of any of the many believers in the Doctrines of Grace that I know or whose works I have read. We believe that God gives us new lives, new hearts to love Him and believe on His Son:

“"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.” (Eze 36:26 NKJV)

The business of telling others what they believe could so easily be avoided by adding the words, "In my opinion," to what one says about somebody else's views.

Silverhair said:

You keep saying that man can't understand the gospel message so why is that
1] God made it impossible for him to understand which goes against what God has said
2] the man is just not bright enough to understand the gospel message.

Now I know you will say he just did not want to trust in God but then that would require that he understood what the gospel message meant.

The scriptures show that unregenerate men can be "devout" and "spiritual" if they so choose to be.

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Where do the Scriptures say that unregenerate men can be devout and spiritual if they want to be? Paul wrote of natural (unregenerate) man:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Wesley Briggman said:

I believe by the Grace of God. The Holy Spirit removed the scales from my spiritual eyes, revealing to me my sinful condition and my need of a Savior, as He did with Saul.

(Act 9:17 KJV) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
(Act 9:18 KJV) And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

(Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

(Rom 11:6 KJV) And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If, as you believe, I choose to be a child of God by my will, that would constitute "works", thereby negating God's grace and not accepting my salvation as a gift from God.

(1Co 2:14 KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

When I was dead in my trespasses and sin, I had no spiritual discernment revealing to me my need for a Savior.

Praise God for His grace to me!

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Here is yet another post, putting forth a fiction by implication.

Here is truth,, Acts 9:18 says something like scales fell from Paul's eyes, which restored his sight which had be lost on the road. This verse refers to physical sight, not spiritual sight, so the claim this verse somehow supports we suffer from total spiritual inability is nonsense.

Here is the truth, Ephesians 2:8 teaches salvation is a gift through faith, thus salvation is not of ourselves.

Here is the truth, Romans 11:6 teaches God's chose of His people through faith, at the present time, is by grace not works.

Here is the truth, Paul spoke to natural, non-indwelt people using spiritual milk, because he knew they were unable to receive spiritual solid food.

Here is the truth, the many who sought the narrow door, thus exhibiting some spiritual ability, were spiritually dead in their sins.

David Lamb said:

You seem too keen on telling other people here what they believe. You wrote: "In your view man is nothing more than a puppet who's every move and thought has been determined by God. Your view makes God the author of sin and evil." That is just not true of any of the many believers in the Doctrines of Grace that I know or whose works I have read. We believe that God gives us new lives, new hearts to love Him and believe on His Son:

“"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.” (Eze 36:26 NKJV)

The business of telling others what they believe could so easily be avoided by adding the words, "In my opinion," to what one says about somebody else's views.

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@David Lamb when people tell me that they hold to the DoG/TULIP then I believe them. When you look at those views you have to come to some logical conclusions re the outcome of those views. What I get is a lot of, ya but I don't believe that, type of response even though the logical outcome of those views lead there.

You can not have God determine all things and then say He does not determine all things because you do not like what it leads to. When you claim that God picked out a select few to be saved you cannot logically deny that He also condemned all the rest.

There is a vast difference between saying God is sovereign, which He is, and saying He determines all things, which He does not.

That fact is that that view does present some logical contradictions that those that hold to that view just want to overlook.

When I wrote "in your view" I was referring to calvinism/reformed as a theological view. Could have written it better.

David Lamb said:

Where do the Scriptures say that unregenerate men can be devout and spiritual if they want to be? Paul wrote of natural (unregenerate) man:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

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Did you not read of the many believers in the OT. What about Lydia Act_16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia from the city of Thyatira, a merchant dealing in purple cloth who was a worshiper of God. or Cornelius Act 10:22 And they said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man,...

Your comment is coming more from the theological position you hold rather than from scripture.

The context of that verse does not support what you are trying to make it say.

Note the context of that verse. You need to read 1Co_2:6-14
Note the wording of 1Co_2:14 NKJV. It say “the natural man does not receive G1209 the things of the Spirit of God” it does not say that he cannot receive them. While conviction by the Holy Spirit Joh_16:8, and the drawing by Christ Joh_12:32, is extended to every sinner Mar_16:15, 1Ti_2:3-4 this does not overrule their free will. Many, but not all, who hear the gospel message by which they can be saved Rom_1:16 will reject it for reasons only they know.

God has provided many ways for man to know about Him whether creation, the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So while the natural man can not know the mind of God he can know the truths of God regarding salvation. We see this clearly in Act_13:46-48 The Jews and Gentiles heard the gospel message preached by Paul & Barnabas but while the Jews rejected the message some of the Gentiles were over joyed and trusted in Christ.

Look at the DoG/TULIP that you hold to. How does that fit with what you were trying to say about man not receiving the things of God. They could not receive it according to the TULIP.

The Gospel call in Calvinism/reformed is not a sincere offer. Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election [chosen before the foundation of the world] that will partake of the Limited Atonement [Christ only covered their sins] will then be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. [God does not draw them at all] So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. The DoG/TULIP theology precludes this.

Note I am not questioning whether you or anyone that holds to the DoG/TULIP is saved I am questioning that errant theological view.

Van said:

If a bible student is only able to express the same view as stated in a creed, such as the TULIP, even when plain evidence from scripture calls that doctrine into question, they can never acknowledge that truth, that the TULIP may not be correct.

The "T" of the TULIP says the natural person cannot understand all the things of the Spirit of God, and that the natural person never, at any time, seeks God. However, Luke 13:24 says many natural people seek the narrow door, but do not find it.

But did you see anyone supporting the TULIP acknowledge the obvious unbiblical claim of the "T" doctrine? Neither did I.

Regimentation on display.

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But Luke 13:24 is in the context of Jesus talking about what will happen when entrance to hreaven is finally closed:

“"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ "then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’” (Lu 13:24-26 NKJV)

Heaven's door is not yet shut; it is still the day of grace, praise God! We have only to think of these words of Jesus to see that He cannot have meant that anybody who truly believes on Him will be kept out of heaven:

“"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.” (Joh 6:47 NKJV)

David Lamb said:

But Luke 13:24 is in the context of Jesus talking about what will happen when entrance to hreaven is finally closed:

“"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ "then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’” (Lu 13:24-26 NKJV)

Heaven's door is not yet shut; it is still the day of grace, praise God! We have only to think of these words of Jesus to see that He cannot have meant that anybody who truly believes on Him will be kept out of heaven:

“"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.” (Joh 6:47 NKJV)

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That is what the bible teaches but the unfortunate thing is that is not what calvinism/reformed teaches is it. According to that view God has picked out a select group and all the rest are doomed before they are even born.

So as I see it the C/R view makes a mockery of scripture. It makes the gospel call moot as the C/R absolutely elect must have been saved without him; and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

Silverhair said:

That is what the bible teaches but the unfortunate thing is that is not what calvinism/reformed teaches is it. According to that view God has picked out a select group and all the rest are doomed before they are even born.

So as I see it the C/R view makes a mockery of scripture. It makes the gospel call moot as the C/R absolutely elect must have been saved without him; and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

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You seem to have the wrong idea about Calvinist beliefs. Yes, they do believe what the bible says about God having chosen people before the foundation of the world. They also believe that all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. Why do some believe and others not? Not because the believers are cleverer, more spiritual. No, because God has given them new life:

“And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:1-8 NKJV)

David Lamb said:

You seem to have the wrong idea about Calvinist beliefs. Yes, they do believe what the bible says about God having chosen people before the foundation of the world. They also believe that all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. Why do some believe and others not? Not because the believers are cleverer, more spiritual. No, because God has given them new life:

“And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:1-8 NKJV)

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Strange how when I refer to C/R views as being a problem I get the same type of answer "You seem to have the wrong idea about Calvinist beliefs.". I quote calvinists and am still told that is not what C/R's believe. Really then why do they say they do.
Just as you did in this post. You said there were a select group of "chosen people before the foundation of the world." then that logically requires that there be all those that were not chosen.
And you say that even though the bible tells us that it is God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" and He sent Christ "that the world might be saved through Him" And we know God meant all of humanity unless you think only that select group were "ungodly, sinners".
The bible is clear that Christ was not just "the propitiation for our sins" but "the whole world" because He "gave Himself as a ransom for all"

And we can know this truth by "the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
So that "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."

So either the word of God is wrong or your understanding of Eph 1:4 is. I will go with the bible. No one was chosen “to be” in Him but instead that those who have repented and believed and are now “in Him” through faith are promised and predestined to an inheritance, adoption, and to be holy and without blame.

FYI Eph 2:1-10 is true. We were lost in our sin but when we freely trusted in His son were were made alive in Him. Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that trust in Him "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

So while the C/R view is that only a select group were picked out the bible tells us "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." and John adds these words "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

Christ does not give them life so they will believe He gives life to those that believe to those that are in Christ through faith. "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." "if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him" And we are told to "present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God." "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

" But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."