The phrase "Doctrines of Grace" is a Calvinist reference to the 5 points of Calvinism.
If you're not a Calvinist you will most definitely disagree with what they mean by this phrase.
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- Thread starter Dave G
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The phrase "Doctrines of Grace" is a Calvinist reference to the 5 points of Calvinism.
If you're not a Calvinist you will most definitely disagree with what they mean by this phrase.
37818
Well-Known Member
I am not a 5 point Calvinist. [My view is similar to a 2 point Calvinist (T***P), but different.]
I have now been a Christian since the summer of 1962.
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OK, but be sure you know what "Perseverance of the saints" means.
It means because of God choosing them for salvation, with them having no say in the matter, they can't lose their salvation.
This is where Once Saved Always Saved was born! The Scripture says otherwise!
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37818
Well-Known Member
God who does the saving is the God who does.the keeping.
Titus 1:2, In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . .
John 10:27-30, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.
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No one can pluck you out of His hands, you pluck yourself out through turning back on Christ through unbelief.
There are several examples of this happening in the Scripture.
This is why the author of Hebrews said,
Heb. 3:14
"For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
We must hold our faith in Christ to the end!
37818
Well-Known Member
Literally that is including self.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Amen.
The passage says, "No ( None)" is able to pluck the believer out of God's hand ( John 10:27-29 ).
" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand."
Here I see that His sheep hear His voice...present tense / continuously happening.
He gives to them eternal life...past tense, already happened.
They shall never perish...declaration of something happening that is not possible.
Neither shall any pluck them out of His hand...No one can do it.
God the Father, which gave them to His Son to save, is greater than all...that includes men.
Again, no ( one ) is able to pluck them out of God the Father's hand.
Added to this, Romans 8 says that nothing can separate His people from the love of God the Father.
Please read it again, Charlie.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I know of no examples of anyone who is truly elect ( and having their names written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world ) ever being lost, Charlie.
But there are examples of people who "believed for a time" and then fell away, which characterizes "tares"...
Sown in Christ's "field" by His enemy.
Please see the parables of the sower and tares ( and the Lord's explanation of them ) for who it is that falls away from Christ.
Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 4.
Have you not read and understood those parables, sir?
They very explicitly tell us who is saved and who is not, and lay out some of the evidences for the saved ( "wheat" ) and the lost ( "tares" ).
For example, His elect continue in their faith and bear true spiritual fruit...while the tares never do.
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You're guessing! Let's go to the Scripture.
Here's and example of plucking oneself out of His hand.
Peter is referring to the Jews who accepted Christ and now through pressure from the Judaists, they have abandoned Christ and gone back to temple worship. There are several ways for one to place thier faith in something rather than the shed Blood of Christ,
This is just one example of many, where man lost his salvation!
2 Peter 2:21
"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
They abandoned Christ and went back to Law!
37818, you can believe these Calvinists in you like, but I will stand before God one day to answer for what I did and did not do.
Don't let these Calvinist's brainwash you, their theology is nothing more than a theory!
....psst, Dave, you're getting the parables mixed up....
Dave G
Well-Known Member
God choosing men for salvation makes it "of grace", Charlie.
Otherwise He would have to regard the efforts and desires of men in order to decide who to save.
His elect persevere because they are kept by His power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No, I'm not, ky.
I'm simply seeing that the last "soil" that bears fruit, and the "wheat" of His field, are one and the same.
They are the saved.
37818
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 1:4, . . . chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . .
There seems to be a correlation between being chosen and names when written in the book of life.
Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The perishimg do not have their names in the book of life.
There are different views as to why that is.
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As long as they keep the faith, Dave.
The faith is what got you saved and faith is what keeps you saved.
This Calvinist election is a load of garbage.
I don't know how many verses of Scripture I have posted that prove that!
Where in the first parable is 'the sower' defined as the devil? The sower of the tares in the second parable is definitely the devil.
Where in the first parable are all the others defined as children of the evil one? They're not.
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37818
Well-Known Member
No.
John 10:28, . . . neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
"Any" would include one's self.
Ok, that's your decision.
If you can come to that conclusion after what I've shown you, then so be it.
I'll not argue!
37818
Well-Known Member
Does not help explain why "unconditional election" is not actually Biblical.