Regimentation

Van · Saturday at 5:02 PM

David Lamb said:
But Luke 13:24 is in the context of Jesus talking about what will happen when entrance to hreaven is finally closed:

“"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ "then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’” (Lu 13:24-26 NKJV)

Heaven's door is not yet shut; it is still the day of grace, praise God! We have only to think of these words of Jesus to see that He cannot have meant that anybody who truly believes on Him will be kept out of heaven:

“"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.” (Joh 6:47 NKJV)

Note how the poster does not acknowledge that many lost sinners were seeking the narrow door. And note that the many were not just causally looking for that door, they were fervently seeking to find it.

The effort at nullification stands on the claim, the verse is talking about "after" the door to heaven has been closed. However, if we look at the parallel passage (Matthew 7:13:14) we see that some do enter by the narrow door so the door is not shut.

Next, the poster seems to claim that someone has said some of those who "truly believes on Him" will be kept out of heaven. Those that "Truly believe" are those whose faith God credits as righteousness, so the charge is just another bogus charge to create a smokescreed.

David Lamb · Monday at 1:36 AM

Silverhair said:
Strange how when I refer to C/R views as being a problem I get the same type of answer "You seem to have the wrong idea about Calvinist beliefs.". I quote calvinists and am still told that is not what C/R's believe. Really then why do they say they do.
Just as you did in this post. You said there were a select group of "chosen people before the foundation of the world." then that logically requires that there be all those that were not chosen.
And you say that even though the bible tells us that it is God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" and He sent Christ "that the world might be saved through Him" And we know God meant all of humanity unless you think only that select group were "ungodly, sinners".
The bible is clear that Christ was not just "the propitiation for our sins" but "the whole world" because He "gave Himself as a ransom for all"

And we can know this truth by "the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
So that "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."

So either the word of God is wrong or your understanding of Eph 1:4 is. I will go with the bible. No one was chosen “to be” in Him but instead that those who have repented and believed and are now “in Him” through faith are promised and predestined to an inheritance, adoption, and to be holy and without blame.

FYI Eph 2:1-10 is true. We were lost in our sin but when we freely trusted in His son were were made alive in Him. Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that trust in Him "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

So while the C/R view is that only a select group were picked out the bible tells us "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." and John adds these words "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

Christ does not give them life so they will believe He gives life to those that believe to those that are in Christ through faith. "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." "if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him" And we are told to "present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God." "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

" But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

I will start by freely admitting that my ability in explaining things clearly (all things, not just things to do with Christianity) is not the best. I will try once again in answering some of your points.

You wrote: "The bible is clear that Christ was not just "the propitiation for our sins" but "the whole world" because He "gave Himself as a ransom for all"". Of course that is true, the bible does say that. But if "the whole world" and "all" mean "everybody without exception who has ever lived," then that would make scripture contradict scripture, because there are verses which talk about God choosing whom He saves. It is clear from other verses that such words do not always mean "everybody without exception":

“And it came to pass in those days [that] a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.” (Lu 2:1 NKJV)

It wasn't absolutely everybody in the whole world, but only those in the Roman Empire.

“First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.” (Ro 1:8 NKJV)

Was the faith of the Christians in Rome being spoken of in what we now call Australia, Greenland or the USA?

“Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him” (Mt 3:5 NKJV)

Does that mean that everybody without exception in Judea went out to him?

Besides, if Christ paid the ransom for everybody without exception, then the payment for their sins has been made, so why are some people still bound for hell?

You then said: "No one was chosen “to be” in Him but instead that those who have repented and believed and are now “in Him” through faith are promised and predestined to an inheritance, adoption, and to be holy and without blame." Yet the bible makes it very clear in places like Ephesians 1 & 2 that those who now believe were indeed chosen/elected by God. That is why Christians have nothing to boast about. We cannot say, "Well, I chose to believe in Jesus, so God saved me." Salvation is God's work from beginning to end.

I don't know if that makes my beliefs any clearer - I hope it does.

Silverhair · Monday at 2:17 PM

David Lamb said:
I will start by freely admitting that my ability in explaining things clearly (all things, not just things to do with Christianity) is not the best. I will try once again in answering some of your points.

You wrote: "The bible is clear that Christ was not just "the propitiation for our sins" but "the whole world" because He "gave Himself as a ransom for all"". Of course that is true, the bible does say that. But if "the whole world" and "all" mean "everybody without exception who has ever lived," then that would make scripture contradict scripture, because there are verses which talk about God choosing whom He saves. It is clear from other verses that such words do not always mean "everybody without exception":

“And it came to pass in those days [that] a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.” (Lu 2:1 NKJV)

It wasn't absolutely everybody in the whole world, but only those in the Roman Empire.

“First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.” (Ro 1:8 NKJV)

Was the faith of the Christians in Rome being spoken of in what we now call Australia, Greenland or the USA?

“Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him” (Mt 3:5 NKJV)

Does that mean that everybody without exception in Judea went out to him?

Besides, if Christ paid the ransom for everybody without exception, then the payment for their sins has been made, so why are some people still bound for hell?

You then said: "No one was chosen “to be” in Him but instead that those who have repented and believed and are now “in Him” through faith are promised and predestined to an inheritance, adoption, and to be holy and without blame." Yet the bible makes it very clear in places like Ephesians 1 & 2 that those who now believe were indeed chosen/elected by God. That is why Christians have nothing to boast about. We cannot say, "Well, I chose to believe in Jesus, so God saved me." Salvation is God's work from beginning to end.

I don't know if that makes my beliefs any clearer - I hope it does.

David you do quite well at relaying the calvinist points but that is just it, they are the calvinist points, they are not the biblical points.

So what your telling me is that the death of Christ was actually not sufficient to cover the sins of all of mankind. That there must be another way for man to be made right with God and thus be saved.

Remember it was Christ who said "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Was He wrong? But not all will repent and believe will they. Does that lessen what Christ had said, NO.

Did the Holy Spirit get it wrong when He inspired Paul to write "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Has God been lying to us or does He actually want all to come to Him.

Was the Holy Spirit wrong when He said "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." And then gave us the reason why the Son was sent "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

Was Christ wrong when He said "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Christ will draw all men but not all will respond. Does that change what Christ said?

The bible tells us that " for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Are you suggesting that only some sinned? Are we to believe that only the elect sinned? And when we are told "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;" Are only some of those that believe saved or are all who believe saved?

While God reaches out to the whole world and desires all to come to repentance He does not force anyone to do so. Christ's death was sufficient to propitiate the sins of all of humanity or He is less than God and His death did not propitiate the sins of anyone. You seem to be equating propitiation with salvation but that is not what we see in scripture. Salvation was made available to all through the cross but no one was saved at the cross.

The only time anyone is "elect" is when they are in Christ. Eph 1:4 makes that clear. Christians are called chosen or elect of God.
It is God choosing what those of us who are in Him {in Christ} will receive (Eph_1:5-14). We are not chosen “to be” in Him but instead that those who have repented and believed and are now “in Him” through faith are promised and predestined to an inheritance, adoption, and to be holy and without blame.

Were you saved prior to creation? NO. None of us were. We are chosen in time only because we believe not so that we will believe or that we were chosen to believe.

I have to ask, do you boast when someone gives you a gift? Would you think you merit that gift? If not then why do you think anyone would or could boast about receiving the gift of salvation through faith.

You wrote "That is why Christians have nothing to boast about. We cannot say, "Well, I chose to believe in Jesus, so God saved me." But is that not exactly what we see in in Acts 16:30-31
And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Now does the jailer have reason to boast, NO. Why because Salvation is God's work from beginning to end. We do not save ourselves but God only saves those that freely trust in Him.

Think through the position that you hold. If as you say God has chosen/elected all those that will be able to be saved then He also picked all those that would not be saved and are thus condemned to hell.

That is one of the problems that I see in calvinism, they do not think through the logical end of that theology.

I understand where you are coming from but what I am saying is that where you are coming from is not biblical. Plus if you take the time to think it through then you will see the problems that that philosophy presents.

Understand I am not saying you are not saved, I am saying that the position you hold is not sound.

Silverhair · Tuesday at 12:22 AM

@David Lamb I have a question for you if you don't mind.

Do you believe that man has a free will?

David Lamb · Tuesday at 4:56 AM

Silverhair said:
@David Lamb I have a question for you if you don't mind.

Do you believe that man has a free will?

No, I don't mind at all. Man's will is free to an extent by nature to follow our natural leader, Satan, into sin. As Paul wrote in Romans:

“knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.” (Ro 6:6-7 NKJV)

Martin Luther wrote a book with the title, "The Bondage of the Will."

As far as being free to follow Christ is concerned, that needs a supernaturally-wrought release. When Jesus sets a sinner free it is a certain and definite freedom:

“Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. "And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.” (Joh 8:34-36 NKJV)

Van · Tuesday at 9:45 AM

Luke 13:24 says natural, non-indwelt, people, many of them, do fervently seek the narrow door to eternal life. This obvious truth will not be acknowledged by any poster advocating Total Spiritual Inability? The reason, Regimentation requiring closed mindedness.

1 Corinthians 3:1 indicates Paul spoke to "people of flesh" (non-indwelt people) using spiritual milk, indicating natural people can understand spiritual milk. This too, will not be acknowledged by any poster advocating Total Spiritual Inability.

1 Corinthians 2:14 says that natural people (non-indwelt people) cannot understand "the things" of the Spirit of God. All those advocating total spiritual inability will claim this can only be interpreted as "all the things" of the Spirit of God. The reason? Regimentation requiring closed mindedness.

Did you ever wonder why it is harder for a rich person to enter the kingdom than for some other person, if everyone is irresistibly compelled to believe? Food for thought....

Silverhair · Tuesday at 11:02 AM

David Lamb said:
No, I don't mind at all. Man's will is free to an extent by nature to follow our natural leader, Satan, into sin. As Paul wrote in Romans:

“knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.” (Ro 6:6-7 NKJV)

Martin Luther wrote a book with the title, "The Bondage of the Will."

As far as being free to follow Christ is concerned, that needs a supernaturally-wrought release. When Jesus sets a sinner free it is a certain and definite freedom:

“Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. "And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.” (Joh 8:34-36 NKJV)

So in other words the only way that a man can turn to God is if God makes him turn.

But if that is the case then you have just made God the one responsible for man going to hell. Remember He is sovereign and He can do as He pleases.

Now the bible tells us that God desires that all should come to repentance and Christ told us to repent and believe the gospel. Are you telling me that God is being less than honest or that He is holding man responsible for things he cannot do?

You can't say that man has the free will to turn away from God but does not have the free will with which to turn to God. God expects that man can do so. So the real question is why do you believe that man cannot?

We are told the gospel is the power of God for salvation, is that not true?
Were told that if you hear the gospel and believe it you will be saved but if one has no free will with which to turn then how can they believe it?

Either man has an actual free will or his actions are determined by an outside force.

The only reason that you believe that man has no free will with which to evaluate the evidence for God is because you have a free will. The only other option is that your view was determined for you so you have no rational way to state an opinion.

David Lamb · Wednesday at 4:24 AM

Silverhair said:
So in other words the only way that a man can turn to God is if God makes him turn.

But if that is the case then you have just made God the one responsible for man going to hell. Remember He is sovereign and He can do as He pleases.

If God can do as He pleases (and He can) then I cannot make Him responsible for anything. Is God responsible for people going to hell? No, they are, because they have disobeyed Him. Is God responsible for saved sinners going to heaven? Absolutely, because by nature all sinners deserve hell.

Silverhair said:
Now the bible tells us that God desires that all should come to repentance and Christ told us to repent and believe the gospel. Are you telling me that God is being less than honest or that He is holding man responsible for things he cannot do?

You can't say that man has the free will to turn away from God but does not have the free will with which to turn to God. God expects that man can do so. So the real question is why do you believe that man cannot?

Yes I believe that man by himself, dead in trespasses and sins, cannot, just as Lazarus, by himself, completely dead, with his corpse stinking, could not come out of his tomb.

Silverhair said:
We are told the gospel is the power of God for salvation, is that not true?
Were told that if you hear the gospel and believe it you will be saved but if one has no free will with which to turn then how can they believe it?

Either man has an actual free will or his actions are determined by an outside force.

Not an outside force, but an outside enabling from God, as we see from those verses from Ephesians 2 that I often quote, so I won't quote them again now.

Silverhair said:
The only reason that you believe that man has no free will with which to evaluate the evidence for God is because you have a free will. The only other option is that your view was determined for you so you have no rational way to state an opinion.

That is not so. The bible talks about sinners being slaves to sin/Satan, and saved sinners being made free by Jesus Christ. That freedom He gives includes making our formerly captive wills free.

Silverhair · Wednesday at 8:50 AM

David Lamb said:
If God can do as He pleases (and He can) then I cannot make Him responsible for anything. Is God responsible for people going to hell? No, they are, because they have disobeyed Him. Is God responsible for saved sinners going to heaven? Absolutely, because by nature all sinners deserve hell.

Your theology makes God responsible for all that happens David. Look at the DoG/TULIP you are being willfully blind when you ignore the reality of your particular view.

David if man has no free will then how can he choose to sin? Did God make Adam sin? NO Where in the bible does it say man lost his free will? It does not. That is just a pagan view brought into the church by Augustine and carried forward by calvinists.

David Lamb said:
Yes I believe that man by himself, dead in trespasses and sins, cannot, just as Lazarus, by himself, completely dead, with his corpse stinking, could not come out of his tomb.

But if man is dead just like Lazarus then man cannot sin either. Why calvinists keep using that lame argument is odd to say the least.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world

Quite the lively corpse there David.

David Lamb said:
Not an outside force, but an outside enabling from God, as we see from those verses from Ephesians 2 that I often quote, so I won't quote them again now.

Still did not address what I posted.
"We are told the gospel is the power of God for salvation, is that not true?
Were told that if you hear the gospel and believe it you will be saved but if one has no free will with which to turn then how can they believe it?

How can man respond to the gospel without a free will? You hold to the idea that man does not have a free will but how did you come to that idea unless you had a free will with which it evaluate information. Two options 1] you have a free will in which case you disprove your view. or 2] It was determined for you to think that way. If it is option two than your view was determined for you so you have no rational way to state an opinion. You have no way of knowing what is true or not.

David Lamb said:
That is not so. The bible talks about sinners being slaves to sin/Satan, and saved sinners being made free by Jesus Christ. That freedom He gives includes making our formerly captive wills free.

But you keep saying man has no free will. Christ setting us free means we are no longer under the law but under grace.

That has nothing to do with whether we have a free will with which to trust in Christ for our salvation.

Even being a slave to sin does not mean they can not hear and trust the gospel message. Just as being a slave to Christ does not mean that we who are saved never sin.

1Co_7:22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.

It seems that you have based you faith on what calvinism teaches rather than on what the bible says.

Van · Wednesday at 10:24 AM

Did you ever wonder why it is harder for a rich person to enter the kingdom than for some other person, if everyone is irresistibly compelled to believe? Food for thought....

Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” [NKJV]

My answer is that if you have little or no treasure in our physical world, it is not difficult to give that small amount up when seeking the riches of heaven, but if you have great or highly valued treasure in our physical world, such as someone with wealth, position, or power, then to give those treasures up is difficult.

In Matthew 13 soil #2 wanted to enter the kingdom but was unwilling to undergo hardship. Soil #3 wanted to enter the kingdom but was unwilling to give up his worldly treasures.

David Lamb · 2025-04-17T06:39:30-0500

Silverhair said:
Your theology makes God responsible for all that happens David. Look at the DoG/TULIP you are being willfully blind when you ignore the reality of your particular view.

No it doesn't. The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith says:

God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.

Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19

I could put the same thing in my own words, but not so well as the writers of the Confession.

Silverhair said:
David if man has no free will then how can he choose to sin? Did God make Adam sin? NO Where in the bible does it say man lost his free will? It does not. That is just a pagan view brought into the church by Augustine and carried forward by calvinists.

Adam in his unfallen state had a will that was completely free. Again quoting from the 1689 Confession's paragraph on free will:

"Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God,2 but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.3

2 Eccles. 7:29
3 Gen. 3:6"

Like everything else, man's free will was corrupted by the Fall:

"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;4 so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin,5 is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.6

4 Rom. 5:6, 8:7
5 Eph. 2:1,5
6 Titus 3:3–5; John 6:44

Silverhair said:
But if man is dead just like Lazarus then man cannot sin either. Why calvinists keep using that lame argument is odd to say the least.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world

Quite the lively corpse there David.

Yet Ephesians 2 says they were able to sin. The very two verses you quote say both tat they were dead in trespasses and sins, and at the same time they walked in those sins. They were dead to spiritual truths.

Silverhair said:
Still did not address what I posted.
"We are told the gospel is the power of God for salvation, is that not true?
Were told that if you hear the gospel and believe it you will be saved but if one has no free will with which to turn then how can they believe it?

How can man respond to the gospel without a free will? You hold to the idea that man does not have a free will but how did you come to that idea unless you had a free will with which it evaluate information. Two options 1] you have a free will in which case you disprove your view. or 2] It was determined for you to think that way. If it is option two than your view was determined for you so you have no rational way to state an opinion. You have no way of knowing what is true or not.

But you keep saying man has no free will.

I don't. I say that man's free will is limited since the Fall to following the ways of sin and the devil. That means that God has to do a work of grace to enable a sinner not only to hear the gospel but to believe it. Think of Lydia, of whom we read:

“Now a certain woman named Lydia heard [us]. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.” (Ac 16:14 NKJV)

Silverhair said:
Christ setting us free means we are no longer under the law but under grace.

True.

Silverhair said:
That has nothing to do with whether we have a free will with which to trust in Christ for our salvation.

Even being a slave to sin does not mean they can not hear and trust the gospel message. Just as being a slave to Christ does not mean that we who are saved never sin.

1Co_7:22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.

It seems that you have based you faith on what calvinism teaches rather than on what the bible says.

No I base my faith on what the bible says. For instance, it says that to the natural man, that is man left to his own devices cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Silverhair · 2025-04-17T09:50:50-0500

David Lamb said:
No it doesn't. The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith says:

God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.

Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19

I could put the same thing in my own words, but not so well as the writers of the Confession.

"that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."
Then you include three verses that show mans ability to exercise his free will.

So which is it David? Does man have a free will or does he not?

David Lamb said:
Adam in his unfallen state had a will that was completely free. Again quoting from the 1689 Confession's paragraph on free will:

So we agree that Adam had a free will as we see in scripture. He chose to believe the Devil and sinned.

Then you added "Like everything else, man's free will was corrupted by the Fall:"

Could you show me where in man lost his free will in these verses?
Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

Now you may trust what a group of men told you or you can trust what the word of God says.

David Lamb said:
Yet Ephesians 2 says they were able to sin. The very two verses you quote say both tat they were dead in trespasses and sins, and at the same time they walked in those sins. They were dead to spiritual truths.

Dead in spiritual sin does not equate to dead or unable to hear and understand so as to turn and believe.
All men are lost/dead in sin prior to trusting in Christ. But Eph 1:13 shows that even those that are dead in sin can hear and believe the gospel the power of God for their salvation. See also Rom 10:9-10

If man were unable to respond to the various means that God uses to draw man then why would God use them?
According to the view you hold it could not be so that they believe and turn to Him as they have to be given that faith after they are saved.

“A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ [R.C. Sproul Chosen By God, pp.72-73].
“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

That theology has turned the biblical text on it's head.

David Lamb said:
I don't. I say that man's free will is limited since the Fall to following the ways of sin and the devil. That means that God has to do a work of grace to enable a sinner not only to hear the gospel but to believe it. Think of Lydia, of whom we read:

“Now a certain woman named Lydia heard [us]. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.” (Ac 16:14 NKJV)

I agree that it is only by the grace of God but where the C/R wants to limit the grace of God the bible shows that grace is available to all.
Joh_1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

So when we look at Lydia what we see is a woman the already was a worshiper of God. But when she heard the gospel message she responded to it. Did God make her believe, NO. What she heard was that the law could not save her but rather faith in the risen Lord could.

David Lamb said:
No I base my faith on what the bible says. For instance, it says that to the natural man, that is man left to his own devices cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Note the wording of 1Co_2:14 NKJV. It say “the natural man does not receive G1209 the things of the Spirit of God” it does not say that he cannot receive them. While conviction by the Holy Spirit Joh_16:8, and the drawing by Christ Joh_12:32, is extended to every sinner Mar_16:15, 1Ti_2:3-4 this does not overrule their free will. Many, but not all, who hear the gospel message by which they can be saved Rom_1:16 will reject it for reasons only they know.

Reading that verse in context {1Co_2:6-14} should clear up the confusion you have.

God has provided many ways for man to know about Him whether creation, the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So while the natural man can not know the mind of God he can know the truths of God regarding salvation. We see this clearly in Act_13:46-48

Van · 2025-04-17T14:09:22-0500

Van said:
Did you ever wonder why it is harder for a rich person to enter the kingdom than for some other person, if everyone is irresistibly compelled to believe? Food for thought....

Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” [NKJV]

My answer is that if you have little or no treasure in our physical world, it is not difficult to give that small amount up when seeking the riches of heaven, but if you have great or highly valued treasure in our physical world, such as someone with wealth, position, or power, then to give those treasures up is difficult.

In Matthew 13 soil #2 wanted to enter the kingdom but was unwilling to undergo hardship. Soil #3 wanted to enter the kingdom but was unwilling to give up his worldly treasures.

As everyone can see, those that deny it is more difficult for a wealthy person to enter heaven than for anyone else, are silent as to the reason God's word says it is. This indicates regimentation, they are only equipped to deny God's word, but not to offer a rational basis for claiming God does not mean what He says.

David Lamb · 2025-04-18T01:29:18-0500

Silverhair said:
"that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."
Then you include three verses that show mans ability to exercise his free will.

So which is it David? Does man have a free will or does he not?

So we agree that Adam had a free will as we see in scripture. He chose to believe the Devil and sinned.

Then you added "Like everything else, man's free will was corrupted by the Fall:"

Could you show me where in man lost his free will in these verses?
Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

Now you may trust what a group of men told you or you can trust what the word of God says.

Dead in spiritual sin does not equate to dead or unable to hear and understand so as to turn and believe.
All men are lost/dead in sin prior to trusting in Christ. But Eph 1:13 shows that even those that are dead in sin can hear and believe the gospel the power of God for their salvation. See also Rom 10:9-10

If man were unable to respond to the various means that God uses to draw man then why would God use them?
According to the view you hold it could not be so that they believe and turn to Him as they have to be given that faith after they are saved.

“A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ [R.C. Sproul Chosen By God, pp.72-73].
“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

That theology has turned the biblical text on it's head.

I agree that it is only by the grace of God but where the C/R wants to limit the grace of God the bible shows that grace is available to all.
Joh_1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

So when we look at Lydia what we see is a woman the already was a worshiper of God. But when she heard the gospel message she responded to it. Did God make her believe, NO. What she heard was that the law could not save her but rather faith in the risen Lord could.

Note the wording of 1Co_2:14 NKJV. It say “the natural man does not receive G1209 the things of the Spirit of God” it does not say that he cannot receive them. While conviction by the Holy Spirit Joh_16:8, and the drawing by Christ Joh_12:32, is extended to every sinner Mar_16:15, 1Ti_2:3-4 this does not overrule their free will. Many, but not all, who hear the gospel message by which they can be saved Rom_1:16 will reject it for reasons only they know.

Reading that verse in context {1Co_2:6-14} should clear up the confusion you have.

God has provided many ways for man to know about Him whether creation, the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So while the natural man can not know the mind of God he can know the truths of God regarding salvation. We see this clearly in Act_13:46-48

I wouldn't want you to think that I have just ignored your post, but I think we are both getting repetitive, saying the same (or similar) things back and forth, which can't be very edifying to others here. So I think I will leave it there, at least for the time being. Thanks for the time and effort you have put into our discussion.

Silverhair · 2025-04-18T08:30:06-0500

David Lamb said:
I wouldn't want you to think that I have just ignored your post, but I think we are both getting repetitive, saying the same (or similar) things back and forth, which can't be very edifying to others here. So I think I will leave it there, at least for the time being. Thanks for the time and effort you have put into our discussion.

Yes some of the comments do get repetitive. That I think is because we run up against the same problematic questions over and over.

It would be good if we can continue this discussion as it is important to have a clear understanding of the relationship we have with God.

Thank you and I look forward to the opportunity to continue this discussion.

Regimentation

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