Why Do Some Believe and Not Others?

DaveXR650 said:

But Edwards is where I got the idea that you are enlightened by a divine and supernatural light. To me that means now you see something in such a way as you did not before and you then see the value in Christ and his way of salvation. Something has changed in you. If God does that then you did not come up with that yourself. My argument, and I speak personally, not as a representative of any school of thought is that we do indeed have a free will but that our will as a human is not completely self determined. But it is partially. In other words, the light you receive is indeed essential and yet you do have some ability to pursue that new direction or choose to remain in sin because you like it more than the light you now know of.

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I agree, man cannot save himself and he will not just wake up one day as choose to trust in the God he knows nothing about. People respond to the various influences that they have presented to them.

DaveXR650 said:

To me, the idea that you are totally dependent upon the work of the Holy Spirit or else you won't come to Christ is the way I would see it. But this grace can and is often resisted.

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I see the work of the Holy Spirit as essential but He is doing that work at all times as He is always present and convicting man. Even when that man will ignore that conviction.

DaveXR650 said:

I was never comfortable with the easy believism which had in a large way taken over evangelical churches in the US at least.

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I have never liked the easy believism. Many have been fooled into thinking they were saved when they did not even know why they needed to be saved.

DaveXR650 said:

That could mean that whenever the word is preached or read the Holy Spirit is indeed at work in some way on the person hearing the word.

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The Holy Spirit is indeed always present so that He can convict the person when they hear or read the word.

I see the conviction as necessary but is not coercive in someone trusting in God.
Like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

I can show them the truth but I can not make them believe it.

2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

MMDAN said:

2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

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That is what it says, Dan...

" Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." ( 2 Corinthians 4:1-6 ).

It seems that many who read it, do not actually believe it.

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost...
Satan, the god of this world, is blinding their minds to the truth of it.

But those of us who have believed on Christ can rejoice in that God has commanded it to shine in our hearts.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God and the salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Dave G said:

That is what it says, Dan...

" Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." ( 2 Corinthians 4:1-6 ).

It seems that many who read it, do not actually believe it.

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost...
Satan, the god of this world, is blinding their minds to the truth of it.

But those of us who have believed on Christ can rejoice in that God has commanded it to shine in our hearts.

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The blindness comes to the lost on the same principle as a seared conscience.

They have rejected it so long and so many times, it no longer has any effect.

In other words as Paul said, they have been turned over to Satan.

Charlie24 said:

The blindness comes to the lost on the same principle as a seared conscience.

They have rejected it so long and so many times, it no longer has any effect.

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It never had any effect before, Charlie.

All of us start out life not seeking God...
The same goes for those who seek the Lord Jesus Christ and come to Him in belief and faith.

They come to Him because it was given to them to do so by God:

" [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:62-65 ).

Do you see that?
No man can come to Him unless it's given to that person to do so, by the Father.

Please read John 6 again, sir.

Dave G said:

It never had any effect before, Charlie.

All of us start out life not seeking God...
The same goes for those who seek the Lord Jesus Christ and come to Him in belief and faith.

They come to Him because it was given to them to do so by God:

" [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:62-65 ).

Do you see that?
No man can come to Him unless it's given to that person to do so, by the Father.

Please read John 6 again, sir.

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Like I said in a post in the past few days (don't know if you seen it or not) the Calvinist belief and the free will belief is exactly the same right up to the point of the actual salvation taking place. I agree with everything you've said!

The difference is that instead of a predetermined election of the individual, the hearer of the Gospel is enlightened by the Spirit of God and must make a choice to accept or reject that calling.

Charlie24 said:

the Calvinist belief and the free will belief is exactly the same right up to the point of the actual salvation taking place. I agree with everything you've said!

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I'm not a Calvinist, Charlie.
I'm a Christian.

I'm simply relating what the Bible says about he subject of the OP.

Charlie24 said:

The difference is that instead of a predetermined election of the individual, the hearer of the Gospel is enlightened by the Spirit of God and must make a choice to accept or reject that calling.

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As I've said before:

Predestination of the individual for salvation is exactly what Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Psalms 65:4 and many other passages tell us.
It was part of the Gospel that Paul preached to the churches, part of what the Lord said to the Jews, part of what the Lord had Peter, Paul, John and others write down for the rest of us to see many generations later.

If we disagree, then we disagree on what the Scriptures say and mean.

I'm sorry sir, but can two walk together unless they are agreed ( Amos 3:3 )?
No, and it saddens me to have to walk away;
But walk away I must.


This will be my final interaction with you...I wish you well, and may God bless you in the knowledge of Him and His Son.

Dave G said:

I'm not a Calvinist, Charlie.
I'm a Christian.

I'm simply relating what the Bible says about he subject of the OP.

As I've said before:

Predestination of the individual for salvation is exactly what Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Psalms 65:4 and many other passages tell us.
It was part of the Gospel that Paul preached to the churches, part of what the Lord said to the Jews part of what the Lord had Peter, Paul, John and others write down for the rest of us to see many generations later.

If we disagree, then we disagree on what the Scriptures say and mean.

I'm sorry sir, but can two walk together unless they are agreed ( Amos 3:3 )?
No, and it saddens me to have to walk away;
But walk away I must.


This will be my final interaction with you...I wish you well, and may God bless you in the knowledge of Him and His Son.

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No Dave, it's not! Calvin got predestination wrong!

God through His foreknowledge knew who the Elect would be, and He predestined them all to His plan of redemption to be conformed into the image of Christ. I have tried every way I know to show this in my threads.

If you have a particular passage of Scripture you would like to cover, let's go over it.

But first I've to run to town, be back in about an hour.

Dave G said:

It seems that many who read it, do not actually believe it.

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost...
Satan, the god of this world, is blinding their minds to the truth of it.

But those of us who have believed on Christ can rejoice in that God has commanded it to shine in our hearts.

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I have to agree with you Dave. Many that have read those words have not believed them. Those that are lost are lost because they have not believed the gospel message.

"For it is the God who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"" He did not command that light to shine in your heart. He is the one "who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Those that respond to the various means that God uses to draw people to Himself have as the text says "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God"

The command was that the light shine not that it shine in any particular heart.

Jesus said "I am the Light of the world." So did God command that all should be saved or is it that His desire is that all should be saved by coming to the knowledge of the truth?

Dave G said:

I'm not a Calvinist, Charlie.
I'm a Christian.

I'm simply relating what the Bible says about he subject of the OP.

As I've said before:

Predestination of the individual for salvation is exactly what Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Psalms 65:4 and many other passages tell us.
It was part of the Gospel that Paul preached to the churches, part of what the Lord said to the Jews, part of what the Lord had Peter, Paul, John and others write down for the rest of us to see many generations later.

If we disagree, then we disagree on what the Scriptures say and mean.

I'm sorry sir, but can two walk together unless they are agreed ( Amos 3:3 )?
No, and it saddens me to have to walk away;
But walk away I must.


This will be my final interaction with you...I wish you well, and may God bless you in the knowledge of Him and His Son.

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It is by your misunderstanding of the context of that verse that you misused it.

God is telling Israel, through Amos, that they are not in agreement.
Many Israelites thought that because they were God’s people, they could do as they liked without fear of punishment. But Amos pointed out to them that their thinking was wrong and used various illustrations to make his point.
EG.
If people go on a journey together, the reason is they have arranged it.
If a lion roars, the reason is it has caught its prey.
If a bird-trap shuts, the reason is a bird has been caught in it.

What you have shown is that you have a closed mind and are not willing to discuss points of disagreement. Your have chosen once again to walk away. That is unfortunate as you miss the opportunity to grow.