The Holy Spirit and Salvation !

Must See the Son to Believe on Him !

Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus once said Jn 9:39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Man who is spiritually blind by nature, cannot See Christ to Believe on Him, utterly impossible. Jesus associates believing with seeing here Jn 12:39-40

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

We believe however that the Spirit of God, in New Birth, or Regeneration opens up the Spiritual Eyes of New Born babe, and by that they are able to Spiritually See the Things of God, and most importantly See the Son of God who gave Himself for them, they See Him in the Gospel, and So it is written Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We believe the Seeing of the Son is the effects of the Spirit and Grace of God, for we do read in scripture this Zech 12:10

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

We believe this is a Look of Faith, a Seeing the Son, after the pouring of the Spirit upon them !

The word Look here is the Hebrew word nabat and means:

I.to look, regard ,ii.to regard, show regard to, pay attention to, consider

And it is the equivalent to the word Seeth in Jn 6:40, which is the greek word theōreō and means:

I.to be a spectator, look at, behold
A.
to view attentively, take a view of, survey

i.to view mentally, consider

The Spirit will give us to focus in on the Person and Work of Christ, Just as Jesus indicated He would do Jn 16:14

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

This is Part of the Spirit's Role in the Salvation of the Elect through Jesus Christ, and why Faith in Christ is His Fruit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 5

@Tenchi

As I've noted before, simply asserting something doesn't, by itself, establish the assertion.

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Im sticking to this assertion about men in general while governed by sinful nature Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Tenchi said:

This is a distinction without a difference, if the spiritual regeneration of a lost person remains ultimately coercive. If a man is made to rob a bank because, if he doesn't, his wife will be murdered, is he any less coerced to enact the robbery than if he had been physically forced at gunpoint to do so? No. Whether by some direct, physical means (do it or I'll shoot you), or by indirect extortion (we'll kill your wife), the man is forced to rob the bank.



I don't see anything about coercive force in this verse. "Calling" doesn't communicate such a thing at all, in my view. But, then, I don't have Calvinist lenses on when I read the verse...



How does "calling" translate into coercion? Take off your Calvinist "glasses" when you read this verse and answer this question, if you can.



I don't see that you've properly established the premises that ground your conclusion here at all. Far from it.

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Doesn't matter to me what you cant see, thats the issue, I see things you cant see at this time, and you have resisted my explaining of things, so it does no good to just keep explaining my views to you and I know you cant see them as ido ! Its not given to everyone to see the spiritual kingdom truths att 13:11

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Brightfame52 said:

Im sticking to this assertion about men in general while governed by sinful nature Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

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Well, if you want to remain willfully blind to the full scope of Scripture so that you can maintain your erroneous beliefs, so be it. It's not my responsibility to convince you of the truth, only to declare and defend it. As Job, Noah, Enoch, Daniel, David, Cornelius and others show, Romans 3:11 is misused by Calvinists to assert a condition of human nature that is contradicted repeatedly by God's word.

Brightfame52 said:

Doesn't matter to me what you cant see, thats the issue, I see things you cant see at this time,

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No, it's not that I don't see what you see - I do - but that I am not in agreement with what you see. Actually, from my point of view, what you see blinds you to the real truth of things. Your "sight" is, as far as I'm concerned, quite myopic.

Brightfame52 said:

and you have resisted my explaining of things, so it does no good to just keep explaining my views to you and I know you cant see them as ido !

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Right. Your explanations have collapsed under my scrutiny of them in the light of God's word. So, it is no good repeating your collapsed viewpoint. I see what you see but must reject it since it doesn't correspond well to Scripture, as I've pointed out.

Brightfame52 said:

Its not given to everyone to see the spiritual kingdom truths att 13:11

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

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I'm sure this patronizing attitude makes you feel secure in your views, but it is the confidence of the thoroughly deceived, in my opinion.
And how ugly it is that you use Scripture here in a sort of spiritualized condescension and ad hominem. Quite in contradiction to how God would have His word used, I think. See Ephesians 4:15; 2 Timothy 2:24-25, Galatians 6:1, etc.

Tenchi said:

Well, if you want to remain willfully blind to the full scope of Scripture so that you can maintain your erroneous beliefs, so be it. It's not my responsibility to convince you of the truth, only to declare and defend it. As Job, Noah, Enoch, Daniel, David, Cornelius and others show, Romans 3:11 is misused by Calvinists to assert a condition of human nature that is contradicted repeatedly by God's word.



No, it's not that I don't see what you see - I do - but that I am not in agreement with what you see. Actually, from my point of view, what you see blinds you to the real truth of things. Your "sight" is, as far as I'm concerned, quite myopic.



Right. Your explanations have collapsed under my scrutiny of them in the light of God's word. So, it is no good repeating your collapsed viewpoint. I see what you see but must reject it since it doesn't correspond well to Scripture, as I've pointed out.



I'm sure this patronizing attitude makes you feel secure in your views, but it is the confidence of the thoroughly deceived, in my opinion.
And how ugly it is that you use Scripture here in a sort of spiritualized condescension and ad hominem. Quite in contradiction to how God would have His word used, I think. See Ephesians 4:15; 2 Timothy 2:24-25, Galatians 6:1, etc.

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Im sticking to this assertion about men in general while governed by sinful nature Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. You cant get past square one with scripture

Brightfame52 said:

Im sticking to this assertion about men in general while governed by sinful nature Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. You cant get past square one with scripture

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This is the sort of response propagandists hope for in those they've caught up in their propaganda. Don't be content to satisfy their hopes. Open your eyes to all that Scripture says about human nature and God; refuse to wear the myopia-inducing Calvinist lens through which you're presently scrutinizing God's word.

Tenchi said:

This is the sort of response propagandists hope for in those they've caught up in their propaganda. Don't be content to satisfy their hopes. Open your eyes to all that Scripture says about human nature and God; refuse to wear the myopia-inducing Calvinist lens through which you're presently scrutinizing God's word.

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Its the sorta of response you cant refute, its scripture. Rom 3:11-12

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The Hearing of Faith !

Gal 3:2,5

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This Hearing of Faith is only for the regenerate, those who have received the Spirit through Faith as in through the Faithfulness of Christ Gal 3:13-14

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Its a Redemptive Blessing Gal 4:4-6

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Now after receiving the Spirit , one can now believe the Gospel, because they now with the Spirit have been given spiritual hearing, and Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God Rom 10:17

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This is the Hearing of Faith in Gal 3:2,5 !

Now we must add Jesus words here, Jn 8:43-47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

This proves that the Spirit must have been given in order to Hear God's Word, Jesus makes it clear here in Vs 47 !

To be of God is to be Born of God !

Jesus again asserts this sublime Truth Jn 18:37

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Thats what the Hearing of Faith is, Hearing the Word of God or Christ. Some Translate Rom 10:17

17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.ASV

The word word is rhema and means:

that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning

So Faith cometh by Hearing the Living voice of Christ, which Jesus makes it clear that those who do hear His Voice are of the Truth, or born of the Spirit Jn 18:37

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

So thats the Hearing of Faith, it the Spiritual hearing of those who are born of God the Spirit ! 5