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Any here hold to Mid Tribulation view, and could that be Church leaving when 2 Witnesses are raised back up?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
I won't rule out the mid-trib view, but I believe the Church is taken out before the events of Revelation begin to unfold as Rev. 4:1-2 represents.
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
The "things that must be hereafter" is after the the rapture of the Church. The anti-Christ is ready to make his bid for the world.
Hazelelponi
Member
The church is one of the two witnesses.
It is we who are killed and are raised back up again.
Remember what Paul noted from the Psalms:
As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered" Romans 8:36
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So you would hold to either a post trib view or Amil one?
Hazelelponi
Member
Amil...
37818
Well-Known Member
No.
Revelation 20:1-6.
That would be the most widely held view
Personally, I'm going to really enjoy the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ.
Hazelelponi
Member
I already am enjoying it... Sorry if you happen to be on the other side of the gulf, (though I doubt you really are, your just not seeing what's before you)
I have been given a heart of flesh and a right mind. I have also been given the Holy Spirit as my new voice of conscience and who just loves to bring to mind the words of God we read in the Scriptures.
I have been baptized into a new family of God and live under mighty blessings every single day.
It's awesome to look at History and see the March of the Kingdom going forward. It's awesome to live in such a changed world, a world with unwalled cities..
Though not all are in Christ Jesus, since 40 AD confessing Christians have from just a few to over 2 billion - more than 6 times the number of people living on the face of the earth when Christ took the full wrath of God upon Himself in our stead for our sins.
The world I live in is a world entirely changed due to one Perfect Man, God wrapped in Flesh, dying on that cross.
I might be a right winger perfectly content to debate left wingers, even in the strongest terms, but it doesn't mean the world I live in isn't absolutely amazing...
Though I live in this fallen world , I still live in the Kingdom, and through God's chosen people the true Kingdom goes forward, through the Holy Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit.
Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Nothing... Read Romans 8 again.
The only thing after this is eternity... And eternity looks amazing indeed...I'm definitely looking forward to it.
But don't think for a minute people who were looking forward to the Kingdom of God on the earth, if we transported them through time into our lives and homes, that they wouldn't think this was heaven on earth... I'm positive people like Paul and Abraham would think this was totally cool...
The Kingdom marches forward, one saved soul at a time. No worries God has all of this in Hand.
We are in the already and not yet .. the not yet part will be the eternal state.
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Baloney
Hazelelponi
Member
Whether the messiness of life is real or perceived, God is still in control of the mess yes?
Relative to this thread and another thread, would you say you are in the kingdom of God but have yet to inherit the kingdom of God?
for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Romans 8:19,20
Would it be according to the word of God to say that from, " And God had finished on the seventh day his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it." to even now the creation is still subject to vanity? in hope?
Is the hope above the same hope of V's 24,25 for in hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for it? and if what we do not behold we hope for, through continuance we expect it. and if the answer is yes is that hope relative to the redemption of the body of V 23?
Is that revelation of the sones of God, redemption of the body, saved to hope that same as the following? Luke 20:35,36 KJV But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Would it be according to the word of God to say that from, " And God had finished on the seventh day his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it." to even now the creation is still subject to vanity? in hope?
Is the hope above the same hope of V's 24,25 for in hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for it? and if what we do not behold we hope for, through continuance we expect it. and if the answer is yes is that hope relative to the redemption of the body of V 23?
Is that revelation of the sones of God, redemption of the body, saved to hope that same as the following? Luke 20:35,36 KJV But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Hazelelponi
Member
Absolutely. Why?
Is the question because my optimistic expression of life got called baloney?
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Hazelelponi
Member
1. Is the creation still subject to vanity “in hope”? (Romans 8:19–20)
Yes, according to the word of God, creation remains subject to ματαιότητι (mataiotēti – "futility" or "vanity"), not by its own will, but by God's decree—in hope. The Greek term ἐπ' ἐλπίδι (ep’ elpidi) in v.20 conveys expectation rooted in assurance, not mere wishfulness.
God ordained, prior to the decree of the Fall, to reveal the glory of His grace in the sons whom He had chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4–5). The "vanity" of the creation is not an accident of history, but part of the stage upon which God's eternal purpose unfolds—in hope, because that same decree includes the renewal of creation in union with the glorification of the elect.
2. Is the hope of Romans 8:24–25 the same hope mentioned in v.20?
Yes, it is thematically and eschatologically the same hope. In Romans 8:24, Paul writes, “for in hope we were saved” This refers to the already-not-yet tension in salvation: we are saved now in principle (justification and sanctification), but await final salvation in fullness (glorification).
The hope in v.20 is creation's hope, while vv.24–25 describe the believer’s hope—but these are not disjointed. Rather, creation's hope is tethered to the glorification of the sons of God, since their redemption signals the renewal of all things (cf. 2 Pet. 3:13, Rev. 21:1). This shared eschatological hope is the “redemption of our bodies” (v.23).
See above.
3. Is the "redemption of the body" in v.23 the same reality as Luke 20:35–36?
Yes, and profoundly so.
Romans 8:23 refers to the final phase of salvation: “the redemption of our body”. This is the bodily resurrection of believers—a resurrection unto incorruptibility (1 Cor. 15:42–44). In Luke 20:35–36, Jesus describes the resurrected state of the righteous:
1.) They "cannot die anymore"
2.) They are "equal to angels."
3.) They are "sons of God, being sons of the resurrection".
This is a glorified condition - the same as Paul’s hope in Romans 8: the eschatological transformation of the body, its liberation from corruption, and full conformity to the image of the risen Christ (Rom. 8:29; Phil. 3:21). This bodily redemption is the revelation of the sons of God the whole creation anticipates.
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We who are premil in our eschatology would tend to see prophecy as being literally fulfiled, and that the Messianic Age foretold by OT prophets and NT Apostles has yet to arrive upon this earth, as at that time King JJesus will be directly reigning over world