Private Bible study question

Silverhair said:

Bible study based on what the bible actually says and not on what we want the bible to say is not as you say "ad hoc".

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Silverhair said:

While "approved Bible studies" can be useful they are still just some persons understanding of what the bible says or means.

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Silverhair said:

Many times people will just trust what is in those books and not do the hard work of actual bible study.

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Tenchi said:

Yes. But I've met a great - and increasing - number of Christians who think that what they feel and experience is at least as authoritative as God's word and who also import a worldly egalitarianism into their approach to group Bible studies where the newest and most immature believer stands on equal footing in their views on Scripture with the believer who's walked well with God and been a careful student of His word for fifty years. And so, in many such Bible studies, God's word is not the Final Word, defining and clarifying itself, but, rather, the perspective/preferences of the reader of God's word decides its meaning. A very postmodern - and common - approach to Bible study and one very sure to create profound error concerning God's truth.

In any case, when I described a Bible study as "ad hoc," I meant in its establishment, not its hermeneutic approach. Sometimes, believers just decide among themselves to study the Bible together privately and informally. There's no directive from a spiritual authority (Elder/Pastor) to do so and no forming the study as a ministry of a church and so I call the decision to do the study "ad hoc."



Certainly, not all published Bible studies one can take up are equal. Many these days are quite awful, offered in order to generate profit rather than a deeper experience of God. Others are very careful in their handling of God's word, applying a sound intrepretive hermeneutic to Scripture, and are well-reasoned and allow Scripture to define, clarify and qualify itself rather the reader. So, while all studies are "just some person's understanding of the what the Bible says," not all put forward an equally good understanding of it.



Yes. Which means these people will never grow spiritually beyond the most rudimentary level and will remain perennially susceptible to the deceits and predations of the false teacher with the impressive credentials. Too often now, believers "out-source" their thinking about their faith, following the path of least resistance, deferring to the "expert" and are led about by the nose concerning what to think and do as a child of God. The commonly spiritually juvenile, complacent, and impotent Church in North America is a sad testament to this.

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Tenchi said:

I once had all the ministry leads at my church sit with me and explain to me what they were doing in their various ministries (I was an Elder in the church, you see). After they had all offered a summary of their ministries, I asked them how they determined if they were succeeding in what they were doing. They were all surprised by my question and had little to offer in response. I was surprised myself at their surprise and asked them why they had been operating without any means of evaluating if they were doing well in their respective ministries. It's just how things had always been done, they told me.

That there was a ministry seemed to be the important thing, not that it was necessarily achieving a godly end. Because this was so, there were a number of ministry leads whose walk with God was not good. All that had been required for their leading a particular ministry was their willingness to do so and no obvious, gross sin disqualifying them. As you can imagine, the ministries were rife with small, subtle seeds of false and carnal teaching, and had drifted into being a lot of "sound and fury signifying nothing" spiritually.

I wouldn't, then, be keen to have a bunch of approved Bible studies that just anyone in the church can take out and use in a sort of ad hoc study they lead on their own. Too often, at least in my experience, this is the "blind leading the blind," involving a lot of erroneous "this is what I think" discussion and the elevation of personal feeling and experience above the declaration of God's word.

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Silverhair said:

Bible study based on what the bible actually says and not on what we want the bible to say is not as you say "ad hoc". While "approved Bible studies" can be useful they are still just some persons understanding of what the bible says or means. Many times people will just trust what is in those books and not do the hard work of actual bible study.

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Hazelelponi said:

Okay cool... and yes I agree.

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Tenchi said:

Yes. But I've met a great - and increasing - number of Christians who think that what they feel and experience is at least as authoritative as God's word and who also import a worldly egalitarianism into their approach to group Bible studies where the newest and most immature believer stands on equal footing in their views on Scripture with the believer who's walked well with God and been a careful student of His word for fifty years. And so, in many such Bible studies, God's word is not the Final Word, defining and clarifying itself, but, rather, the perspective/preferences of the reader of God's word decides its meaning. A very postmodern - and common - approach to Bible study and one very sure to create profound error concerning God's truth.

In any case, when I described a Bible study as "ad hoc," I meant in its establishment, not its hermeneutic approach. Sometimes, believers just decide among themselves to study the Bible together privately and informally. There's no directive from a spiritual authority (Elder/Pastor) to do so and no forming the study as a ministry of a church and so I call the decision to do the study "ad hoc."



Certainly, not all published Bible studies one can take up are equal. Many these days are quite awful, offered in order to generate profit rather than a deeper experience of God. Others are very careful in their handling of God's word, applying a sound intrepretive hermeneutic to Scripture, and are well-reasoned and allow Scripture to define, clarify and qualify itself rather the reader. So, while all studies are "just some person's understanding of what the Bible says," not all put forward an equally good understanding of it.



Yes. Which means these people will never grow spiritually beyond the most rudimentary level and will remain perennially susceptible to the deceits and predations of the false teacher with the impressive credentials. Too often now, believers "out-source" their thinking about their faith, following the path of least resistance, deferring to the "expert" and so, are led about by the nose concerning what to think and do as a child of God. The commonly spiritually juvenile, complacent, and impotent Church in North America is a sad testament to this.

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Silverhair said:

I could not have said it any better.

We are in a state decline as far as biblical literacy goes.

This I believe is what will lead to many "Christians" being deceived by a smooth talking false messiah.

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Tenchi said:

I once had all the ministry leads at my church sit with me and explain to me what they were doing in their various ministries (I was an Elder in the church, you see). After they had all offered a summary of their ministries, I asked them how they determined if they were succeeding in what they were doing. They were all surprised by my question and had little to offer in response. I was surprised myself at their surprise and asked them why they had been operating without any means of evaluating if they were doing well in their respective ministries. It's just how things had always been done, they told me.

That there was a ministry seemed to be the important thing, not that it was necessarily achieving a godly end. Because this was so, there were a number of ministry leads whose walk with God was not good. All that had been required for their leading a particular ministry was their willingness to do so and no obvious, gross sin disqualifying them. As you can imagine, the ministries were rife with small, subtle seeds of false and carnal teaching, and had drifted into being a lot of "sound and fury signifying nothing" spiritually.

I wouldn't, then, be keen to have a bunch of approved Bible studies that just anyone in the church can take out and use in a sort of ad hoc study they lead on their own. Too often, at least in my experience, this is the "blind leading the blind," involving a lot of erroneous "this is what I think" discussion and the elevation of personal feeling and experience above the declaration of God's word.

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Ben1445 said:

Ben1445 said:

While I can agree and appreciate that we want to evaluate and be sure that our teachers and leaders are doing what they ought to be, I do find it Scriptural to back up a little bit and allow people to grow with some personal space. (Pardon please my reaction if you disagree. My response comes by way of personal experiences.)

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I'm not sure why you seem to think these are mutually-exclusive things. How does carefully scrutinizing church leaders and teachers for their fitness spiritually to lead and teach preclude allowing people to "grow with some personal space"?

Ben1445 said:

I have had some people in the past suggest that we give tests to everyone in the congregation to see if they are paying attention.

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To what end, I wonder? Seems a bit over-controlling, don't you think?

Ben1445 said:

This seems to me to be contrary to
Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

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Of course, Paul is exercising judgment himself in what he wrote here, right? What's more, he has condemned the practice of "judging another man's servant" and forbidden it. You can't do this without judging, which is to say, evaluating whether or not a thing is right or wrong, good or bad, and "eating the meat but spitting out the bones." And so, Jesus commanded his followers to "judge righteous judgment" (Jn. 7:24), and we read over and over again in the NT various judgments rendered upon individuals and groups of people. Read 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, and 11, or Galatians 3-6, or Matthew 23, etc.

Romans 14:1-4
1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

In context, Paul's question in verse 4 has to do with passing judgment upon the opinions of a person who is "weak in the faith" (vs. 1), regarding that weaker brother with contempt because of his moral hyper-sensitivity (vs. 3, 10), tearing down his faith and causing him to stumble (vs. 20-21). It is this contemptuous, destructive attitude, in particular, that Paul calls "judging the servant of another," not making moral, rational, spiritual and practical judgments about people, events, beliefs, practices, etc.

Ben1445 said:

If you feel like people are not applying Scripture, James gives some help for that topic. In the end, we exhort to good works but there is still personal responsibility involved.

What sort of evaluation do you think is appropriate or necessary?

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"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I can't make anyone else properly apply Scripture; but I can observe when they aren't doing so, or doing so badly, and exhort them to a better understanding and application of it. And, if I'm an Elder/Pastor in a church, I have the God-given responsibility to keep those who aren't living in God's truth well from leading or teaching the "flock" of God. They will only reproduce their own poor spiritual understanding and experience in those they lead and teach, harming the church.

What evaluation do I think the Bible indicates to us as necessary for church leaders and teachers?

1 Timothy 3:1-13.
Titus 1:6-16.
Galatians 5:22-23.
James 3:17-18.
Hebrews 5:11- 6:2
2 Corinthians 6:17-18.
1 John 2:15-16.

Perfection isn't the standard for Christian service - it can't be, obviously - but there must not be any wilful sin into which a leader/teacher is regularly falling, there must be clear, enduring evidence of "walking in the Spirit" (e.g love, holiness, faithfulness, peaceableness, joy), there must be a thorough knowledge of God's word and lengthy experience in living in its truth. These are essential characteristics of any leader/teacher in the Church. If they aren't evident in one thinking to teach or lead fellow believers, well, "like begets like."

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Tenchi said:

Sorry about the strange formatting in my last post...

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Tenchi said:

I'm not sure why you seem to think these are mutually-exclusive things. How does carefully scrutinizing church leaders and teachers for their fitness spiritually to lead and teach preclude allowing people to "grow with some personal space"?

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Ben1445 said:

I have had some people in the past suggest that we give tests to everyone in the congregation to see if they are paying attention.

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Tenchi said:

To what end, I wonder? Seems a bit over-controlling, don't you think?

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Ben1445 said:

I don’t think they are mutually exclusive. Past experience with people who did is what prompted the question. That is why I was asking for clarification about your thoughts.

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Ben1445 said:

Absolutely! This again was why I asked for clarification. Someone I know with your interest and some of the same verbiage took it to that extreme level. I was just wondering how far you meant.
I had a hard time believing I was hearing it when I heard it in past experience. That prompted the extra concern for your statements.
I don’t think I disagree with you at all. I just didn’t know exactly what you meant.

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Retired2025 said:

Hello all, Im a new Baptist member. We have been having weekly bible studies, just a few of us, to "forsake not the assembling together" and also to have some satellite studies in different friends homes, and geographic locations, as well as "rightly dividing the word of truth". Our friend who is usually organizing the studies was recently asked by someone in the church "who authorized him to conduct bible studies", and also "why do you want to study outside of the church, you have everything here". I was just wondering if it is normal within the Baptist circle to try and control our activities outside of church, or is this just an unusual "one-off" situation. I love the congregation and the Pastor, but it seems discomforting to me that some would try and discourage us from studying. It's not easy to drive to the church every time we want to crack open our bibles together. Any perspectives appreciated.

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