Did Adam Have a Free Will?

37818 said:

John 1:18, No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Colossians 1:15, Who is the image of the invisible God, . . .

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When God made Himself seen to Moses, he couldn't see His face it would have killed him.

So either it was a preincarnate appearance of Christ that Moses seen, or he actually seen the Father.

If it was the Father, "No man hath seen God at any time" would mean that no man has ever seen the Father in all His Glory.

Personally I believe the Jehovah God of the OT is Jesus Christ, and that is who Moses seen.

Aaron said:

This is what I hear you saying. His plan was predestined. NOT us.

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We were predestined by Him to His plan of redemption to be conformed in the image of Christ.

Romans 8:29

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son...."

Eph. 1:4-5

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

"We have been predestined to the adoption", this is not the individual being chosen, but rather how one becomes the child of God.

We become the child of God through His redemption plan.

Aaron said:

He knew "Christ" through the priesthood of Melchizedek.

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I should qualify this a bit more. I should say Abram, knew God through the priesthood of Melchizedek, as did most of the world in his day. But he also knew God as Yahweh when He gave Abram the Promise:

And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed [meaning Christ (Gal. 3:16)] will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. - Genesis 12:7 KJV.

I'm basically agreeing with you. It was faith in Christ, though they only received a partial revelation of Christ, and didn't know Him as Christ crucified.

Charlie24 said:

this is not the individual being chosen, but rather how one becomes the child of God.

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Still hearing the method was predestined, not us.

Charlie24 said:

Believing in or on God never saved anyone!

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Tread lightly, here.

Charlie24 said:

Salvation has always been in Jesus Christ, there is no other way. Whether looking forward to Him as the Lamb of God, as did the OT saints, or looking back at Him, as we in NT do.

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While not incorrect about Christ being the means of justification, and thereby the door to salvation … pressing too far in that direction does injury to the truth of the TRI-UNITY of the Godhead and threatens to create a Christian Pantheon of three distinct ‘gods’.

Aaron said:

Still hearing the method was predestined, not us.

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We were predestined in Him through and to His plan of redemption.

In other words, before the foundation of the world, before man was created, God knew man would fall.

He determined that a plan would be placed in order to redeem man from his sins.

That plan is the predestination for all of mankind who will believe.

Charlie24 said:

We were predestined in Him through and to His plan of redemption.

In other words, before the foundation of the world, before man was created, God knew man would fall.

He determined that a plan would be placed in order to redeem man from his sins.

That plan is the predestination for all of mankind who will believe.

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In Eph. 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,"

He chose us to be in Him through His plan of redemption.

Charlie24 said:

In Eph. 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,"

He chose us to be in Him through His plan of redemption.

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We were predestined for His plan, not the election as the Calvinists assume.

Charlie24 said:

Personally I believe the Jehovah God of the OT is Jesus Christ, and that is who Moses seen.

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John 14:9, He who has seen Me has seen the Father.

37818 said:

John 14:9, He who has seen Me has seen the Father.

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This is where they go wrong who deny the Trinity.

They believe the Father and the Son are the same person, that is incorrect.

The author of Hebrews tells us that Jesus Christ is "the express image of His (the Father's) person.

This means that Jesus Christ is the exact reproduction of the Father in the flesh.

That's how Christ could tell the apostles, if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

What is considered "free will" has consequences. Therefore, in my view, it is not "free".

(Mat 12:36 KJV) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Aaron said:

Christ said, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree good.

Adam was created good...but not uncorruptible. What corrupting influence was found in the Garden, and was it there by God's will?

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That’s what I don’t understand about Calvinism. You guys assert that Adam’s original nature was free of sin and could have chosen not to sin, yet God set up the chain of events in which Adam could do no other than sin eventually. It’s a massive contradiction.

Doesn’t it make more sense to say that he was created with the ability to sin by his own free choosing?

Wesley Briggman said:

What is considered "free will" has consequences. Therefore, in my view, it is not "free".

(Mat 12:36 KJV) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

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If you read on down, "for by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned."

The "idle word" that man speaks is a man claiming righteousness he doesn't have in the sight of God.

Those words will condemn him.

Yes free will has consequences, I agree! Look at what free will did to Adam when he misused it.

and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death. Heb 2:9 YLT

Why was Jesus made a little less than the angels? What did Jesus being made a little less than the angels enable Jesus to do?

and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, 'What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him? Thou didst make him some little less than messengers, with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands, Heb 2:6,7

Why was man, Adam. made a little lower than the angels?
What was a reality that had yet to be introduced into the foundation of the world? What was a reality and the result of that reality that needed to be destroyed? Was it the devil, the sin of the devil and the death that follows the sin ie the works of the devil? See 1 John 3:8 Heb 2:14

What was God doing through Adam the figure of him to come?

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

Was Adam a key part of the creation?

Baptizo said:

Doesn’t it make more sense to say that he was created with the ability to sin by his own free choosing?

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Yes, it would make more sense, but it wouldn't be true. Modalism makes 'sense' out of the Trinity, but Modalism isn't the testimony of the Scriptures.

Open Theism makes sense.

It doesn't make sense that God never sent Sodom a prophet, knowing they would have repented, but He chose a disobedient and gainsaying people to send His prophets to, and ultimately His Son, all, utlimately to be killed. It cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

percho said:

and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death. Heb 2:9 YLT

Why was Jesus made a little less than the angels? What did Jesus being made a little less than the angels enable Jesus to do?

and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, 'What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him? Thou didst make him some little less than messengers, with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands, Heb 2:6,7

Why was man, Adam. made a little lower than the angels?
What was a reality that had yet to be introduced into the foundation of the world? What was a reality and the result of that reality that needed to be destroyed? Was it the devil, the sin of the devil and the death that follows the sin ie the works of the devil? See 1 John 3:8 Heb 2:14

What was God doing through Adam the figure of him to come?

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

Was Adam a key part of the creation?

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Heb. 2:9

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Christ being made a little lower than the angels is referring to His humanity, the incarnation.

He became man to redeem us from our sins. Man sinned and man must pay the price, and He paid the price for all of us as a man.

The rest of what you have posted would take no less than, I'd say, 3-4 pages to explain.

But we can tackle it one line at a time if you like.

Charlie24 said:

Heb. 2:9

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Christ being made a little lower than the angels is referring to His humanity, the incarnation.

He became man to redeem us from our sins. Man sinned and man must pay the price, and He paid the price for all of us as a man.

The rest of what you have posted would take no less than, I'd say, 3-4 pages to explain.

But we can tackle it one line at a time if you like.

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Christ tasted death for every man, as the author said. But here's the condition, in order for man to reap benefit from His tasting death for us, he must repent and believe, or the deal is off. The condition must be met!

Charlie24 said:

Christ tasted death for every man, as the author said. But here's the condition, in order for man to reap benefit from His tasting death for us, he must repent and believe, or the deal is off. The condition must be met!

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Correct.

How did he pay?

How he paid is why he was made a little lower than the angels.


Why wasn't Adam made equal unto the angels? Why was Adam also made a little lower than the angels?

IMHO Even in Genesis 1:2 this from Eph 6:12 was taking place [ darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;] inclusive it that was, the death. Therefore God was about to Ps 104:30 [Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.] with Adam of flesh and blood to address, the death and the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places.

percho said:

Correct.

How did he pay?

How he paid is why he was made a little lower than the angels.


Why wasn't Adam made equal unto the angels? Why was Adam also made a little lower than the angels?

IMHO Even in Genesis 1:2 this from Eph 6:12 was taking place [ darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;] inclusive it that was, the death. Therefore God was about to Ps 104:30 [Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.] with Adam of flesh and blood to address, the death and the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places.

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The wages of sin is death, and He tasted that death in our place. The Scripture calls it the Grace of God.

By Grace ye are saved by faith, it is the gift of God...

Man was made a little lower than angels in ability and wisdom. They have not faced the hardships we face in this life, and they cannot be co-heirs with Christ as we will be. They will take a back seat to man in the Kingdom of God.

I heard a preacher once who explained exactly what we wrestle against in Eph. 6:12.

Principalities, are the highest order of rank in Satan's kingdom.

Powers, are the ranks directly below the principalities.

Rulers of the darkness of this world, are the ranks that carry out the orders of the powers.

Spiritual wickedness in high places, are the demon spirits filled with evil and the ability to possess man.

Personally, I believe it was these evil forces that made the "earth without form and void" in Gen. 1:2.

The Scripture makes reference to the tail of the Red Dragon (Satan) drawing 1/3 of the stars of heaven (angels) in Rev. 12:4.

This is a reference that goes back to the dateless past before man was created, but in the context of Rev. 12 they in the future will be cast out of heaven to the earth.

In the past when they took part with Satan, I believe there was war and the result was Gen. 1:2, the earth was all but destroyed.

If this theory is correct, then the creation we read in Gen. 1-2 is actually a recreation of all that was created millions of years ago in the beginning, Gen. 1:1.

Aaron said:

Yes, it would make more sense, but it wouldn't be true. Modalism makes 'sense' out of the Trinity, but Modalism isn't the testimony of the Scriptures.

Open Theism makes sense.

It doesn't make sense that God never sent Sodom a prophet, knowing they would have repented, but He chose a disobedient and gainsaying people to send His prophets to, and ultimately His Son, all, utlimately to be killed. It cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

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Good thing that I'm not an open theist. The Bible tells me that God has foreknowledge and is sovereign. It also tells me that human beings are able to make the right choice or the wrong choice. Just like scripture doesn't give us all the details on the nature of the Trinity, it doesn't give us all the details about how God works behind the scenes to accomplish His purposes. As you pointed out, Sodom would have repented, meaning that they had the ability to do so.