Spiritual growth and numerical growth

No I would not. I could lower our standards and immediately double the size of our church. That certianly would not indicate that we are a healthy church. </font>[/QUOTE]What makes you think the standards in your church are high enough?

If your standards are lower than Jesus Christ then your church is not up to the proper standard.

I doubt what you said is true at all. If that were the case then the churches in America would be popping at the seams. Thom Rainer in his book SURPRISING INSIGHTS FROM UNCHURCHED would disagree with you big time. He interviewed quite a number of new believers and found that quite a number of them expressed how they had gone to a church and felt after listening to the preacher that they had more faith then he did. Many of the non-believers tell me about how the church has (in their own words) become liberal. My friend who has been a missionary in Ethiopia has told me about how the churches in America has become severely weaker in the 25 years he was gone.

I have found that it is the non-believers when they come to church who can handle the straight stuff. Often they come because they are looking for answers and help. It is the disobedient believers who want a joy ride and have trouble with the real deal. I have hads hecklers in the open air at the university I was a student at. But never once have I ever had a non-believer in a church I pastored ever tell me that what I preached was not something they should have heard. But I have had disobedient believers growl at me. But so did Jesus and Paul have the same problems.

 

Imagine a vine without any fruit. My parents were grape farmers at one time. If that happened we dug ut that vine and threw it away or burned it. In place of it we might take a cane and allow it to get long and then dig a hole and bend the cane so part of the cane would be buried and part was aimed straight up and tied to a stake. Later after a few years after the cane turned into a vine we would cut the new vine(old cane) from the mother vine. That is much the way we are to make disciples. That new vine would go on to produce fruit. Fruit was always quality and quantity. If we wanted large fruit we would girdle the vine so that the nutrients from the soil and water would go into the fruit. But if we would not prune a vine sufficiently the energy would go into producing wood and lots of fruit. But the fruit would be small and not of much size.

My wife and I bought a home that had some grapes in the back yard. They looked poor and hadn't been cared for. I really didn't they were much good. By the time we took possession of the property it was summer and there were a few small grapes. So during the winter I decided to prune them as I had been taught as a kid. We also decided to water and fertilize them. The following spring there were loads of grapes. When they ripened we had more and bigger grapes then we could eat. In fact our neighbors asked what we had done to them. They mentioned they had never seen those grapes that were that big nor as many from those vines. We actually gave most of them away because we had so many.

I think there is a lesson to be learned from grapes. When we care and nurture what God has given He will give more. But until we do, how can we expect God to bless with more than we have now?

 

Because they are based on the Word of God.

What does that mean, to be lower than Jesus Christ?

Then you'd be wrong my friend. If we had all those that came to church and left in the last 4 1/2 years because of a standards related issue, we would be nearly double what we run right now.

That confirms my point exactly. In order to keep American Christians happy, you have to lower the standards.

We're not talking about hard preaching. Most people do enjoy that to a degree. It is when you start telling them, how they should live according to the Word of God that they get their feathers ruffled and find another church.

 

I believe that spiritual growth does not always equal numerical growth. But it should!

John 15:1-8 illustrates what we are talking about perfectly IMO.
If we abide in Christ, we will produce fruit. The fruit of a Christian is more Christians. The fruit of the Spirit is different. (Gal 5)

Notice also that Jesus said if we do not produce fruit, the Jesus takes away "our branch". But if we do produce fruit, He "purges" us. Sometimes, if a church is producing this fruit, God will cut our numbers back so that we can produce more fruit, and much fruit and good fruit.

The time element is what trips up many a church member. But we must remember the agricultural illustrations Jesus used and apply them to our understanding of growth. As has been pointed out, sometimes a grape vine takes years to produce good fruit. Also one may think of a grain farmer. It is a significant period of time between planting and harvest. Without exception, what is planted is significanly smaller in number than the harvest. A single grain of corn will produce one plant. But on that plant you may have 2-3 ears. Each ear of corn will have dozens of grains of corn. Each of those grains of corn represents another Christian. But the time element may be many years before we would see the growth. If we have planted in good soil, we will see growth. Like the Law of Sowing and Reaping, we will reap what we sow, much later than we sowed, and much [/B]more[/B] than we have sewn.

Therefore, it is Scriptural to believe that a healthy church will grow numerically. Our problem lies in thinking it must be on our time schedule. That is the error of the "Church Growth Movement". They try to get God to work on their schedule rather than just being faithful planting in good soil and waiting for God to provide the increase in His time.

My $0.02 worth.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Acts says that they added to the church daily. Talk about church growth!

 

adding unto the church of Acts is not talking about building or local church, it is talkjng about adding them join the body of Christ - spiritual.

Christ spoken of our fruit apply out spiritual life, that Christ expects that our root should become firm and be strong, able to growing. If we do not walking in the Lord, and not being to be faithful to God, then He might cut us off - John 15:6 and Romans 11:19-23.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Originally posted by Pastor_Bob:
Because they are based on the Word of God.

That may be true in thought but in practice if you are like the rest of us your church has a ways to go because what it believes is expressed in what it does.

What does that mean, to be lower than Jesus Christ?[/b]

Jesus commands us to follow him. Anything less than that is sin and that is a lower standard.

Then you'd be wrong my friend. If we had all those that came to church and left in the last 4 1/2 years because of a standards related issue, we would be nearly double what we run right now.

How many of those are non-believers? Sounds like those you describe are pew sitters who have not grown up and are still spiritual babes wanting to get more milk. I have had the same thing happen as did Jesus with religious folks but not with non-believers who came when called. Even Spurgeon writes about how he never once ever had to ask a person to leave that had come to Christ under his ministry. I could say the same thing as Spurgeon.

That confirms my point exactly. In order to keep American Christians happy, you have to lower the standards.

I don't believe that for one minute. Lower them for what? If you do then you do not undertsand who your responsibility is to. Every where I have gone I have proven that wrong. I believe those who will cause you trouble are most miserable. How can the disobedient be happy? Scripture eteches that the obedient believrs is filled with joy.

Many of my friends are missionaries from the days of being in the Navigators. Not so many are from churches though. I think most churches demand little so they get little from the people except disobedient children who cause problems and are more like the world than Christ. They don't like ot be challenged but like comfort and ease.

We're not talking about hard preaching. Most people do enjoy that to a degree. It is when you start telling them, how they should live according to the Word of God that they get their feathers ruffled and find another church.

How is that hard preaching? That should be normal. People should be offended when the preacher tries to take the place of the Holy Spirit though. We are the messenger not the message. Why should we preach anything less than Jesus did? I think where the difference lies is in what we do after the sermon. We should be like Christ and make disciples. It is easy to show up for church but requires our life to make disciples.

 

Have you carefully read my posts before you respond? Please show me where I advocated lowering my standards.

 

The church is comprised of the members of the body of Christ, right? Then it should be not only a spiritual addition but a growth addition also. This is not just evangelism but discipleship!

 

Have you carefully read my posts before you respond? Please show me where I advocated lowering my standards. </font>[/QUOTE]"In order to keep American Christians happy, you have to lower the standards."

I don't believe that for a minute. They are not your standards. I can easily say without even knowing you that your standards are lower than Jesus because you are a sinner. According to James our standards are shown not by what we say but by what we do. Even Paul said he diod not come up to the standard.

You are advocating that to keep American Chrsitians happy you musy lower your standards. That is a real slap in hte face.

That's quite dim view of those Americans God calls to risk their lives to give out the gospel. One of my closest friends from college has been in Ethipoia for 25 years. One year was before communism and a few after. He showed me a picture of a time when he was preaching in the open air and there were men present with small machine guns.

 

Your friend in Ethiopia would echo my opinion I'm sure. American Christians do not have the same level of comittment that many Missionaries find amongst their converts. I have the privilege of fellowshipping with at least one Missionary a month. Many months we have in more than one. Our church supports 43 Missionaries. For a list, please see our website HERE.

Now, I did not say that I would lower my standards. I said if I did I could have a larger church. I thank God for the faithful folks He has given us who serve Him out of a heart of love and who do not come to church simply as a social outlet or just to be entertained. Sadly, as many of our Missionaries have testified, many American Christians attend church for just those reasons.

I have seen folks saved and join the church and then leave to find a church more suited to their personal standards. If I would have only lowered ours, I could have kept those folks. That is what I am saying. You can disagree all you like, but it is a fact that I live every day right here among this very issue.

 

The idea that "my church would grow if I lowered my standards" sounds spiritual but has no legitimate substance to its claim. It has been my experience that many who use this excuse are simply a part of churches that are seeing very few salvations and baptisms and it sounds spiritual if one plays the "standards" card to excuse it.

And yes in our culture a healthy church will be a growing church. If you are faithfully involved in fulfilling the Great Commission, you will grow.

 

In my town, people NEVER leave a church to go to another church with 'higher standards'.

They always leave to go to a church with 'lower standards'.

When the preacher says something they don't like about standards, they will leave and find a church whose standards agree with theirs - even if it doesn't agree with the Word of God...

 

That depends on one's definition of "higher standards".

It's been my experience that certain IFB churches which hold to (self-proclaimed) "higher standards" actually hold to various extra-Biblical standards.

I would argue that those who may leave churches which hold to any variety of extra-biblical standards; and go to other churches which do not; are in reality going to the more Biblical church.

 

Nice play on words. You two are saying the same thing.

 

I have seen many large churches that were unhealthy and not growing, but I don't think I have seen very many small churches that were healthy and growing. The exception would be when that small church is in its infancy. I can't say that small churches (beyond their infancy) that are healthy and growing do not exist...just haven't seen very many.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I would think that if we are consistently faithful witnesses to the gospel, folks will get saved....maybe not in the large numbers we would like to see, but people will get saved.

I can confidently say that the periods of non-growth my pastorates have experienced can each be traced to my and my people doing a sloppy job of sharing our faith outside the confines of the church house.

 

Amen Amen and another Amen...