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Confession for Baptist’s and Protestants in general

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Cathode

Well-Known Member
"Palladius, having been ordained by Pope Celestine, is sent as first bishop to the Scotti believing in Christ" Proper of Aquitaine Chronicon 431 Ad.

So knowing there were Christians in Ireland, the Pope sent them a Bishop, a head. So they wouldn’t be acephalous any longer.

"having ordained a bishop for the Irish, while he labours to keep the Roman island Catholic, ." Contra Collatorem Prosper of Aquitaine 433 Ad

The Pope ordained Palladius to be Bishop of Ireland.
 
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David Lamb

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Cathode said:
“Acephalous Christians” means that there were christians in Ireland before Palladius the first Bishop.
This doesn’t mean that a Church existed there.

Without a Bishop there is no Church in a place. This is a consistent rule of the Church, no Bishop no Church.

Everything centred around the Bishop as the ecclesiastical head.

Once a bishopric is established in a place, then the “acephalous Christians” whoever they might be, answer to him.
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I assume that "acephalous" means "without a head." If so, in the bible we read that Christ is the head of His church:

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.” (Col 1:15-18 NKJV)

An acephalous Christian would have to be separate from Christ, an impossibilty. In the New Testament, each local church had its overseer/bishop; we don't read anywhere in the NT of an overseer/bishop having authority over a group of local churches, a diocese, if you like.
 
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Cathode

Well-Known Member
David Lamb said:
I assume that "acephalous" means "without a head." If so, in the bible we read that Christ is the head of His church:

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.” (Col 1:15-18 NKJV)

An acephalous Christian would have to be separate from Christ, an impossibilty. In the New Testament, each local church had its overseer/bishop; we don't read anywhere in the NT of an overseer/bishop having authority over a group of local churches, a diocese, if you like.
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No in the ancient context, it means without a Bishop. Pope Celestine appointed Palladius as Bishop, the ecclesial head of Irish believers.

The Bishops/ Overseers are representing Christ officially and Apostolically.

We can see with Ignatius Bishop of Antioch and disciple of John the Apostle, the status of Bishop/ Overseer.

“See that ye all follow the Bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyraens, 8 (c. A.D. 110).

The Bishop is invested with all the Apostolic power.

“ Teach and reprove, with ALL AUTHORITY , let no man despise you “

Titus and Timothy are examples of Early Bishops appointed by the Apostles invested with all authority as heads.

The Early Church was very heirachical and did not have the revolutionary Protestant/ Communist egalitarianism indoctrinated into it.

There were lines of Authority, as in accord with the Theocratic Monarchy of Christ Jesus to the Glory of God The Eternal Father.
 
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Ben1445

Active Member
Cathode said:
The Christians in Ireland before the time of Palladius’ arrival were acephalous, because a Bishop hadn’t arrived yet. It just means they had no head which is always the Bishop.

Just because there are Christians in a place does not mean that a Church is in that place.

A Church is only established if a Bishop is there.

You are totally misunderstanding the meaning in this context. Wilfully so.

This is not the equivalent of an independent Church, you are reading into this far beyond what is said.

A few Christians in a place does not make a Church, what makes it a Church is a Bishop.
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We disagree about what makes a church.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
We disagree about what makes a church.
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Yes we do.

My understanding comes from Scripture, enlightened by the correct interpretation of it, interpreted from the disciples of the Apostles, Bishops themselves.

You don’t have the benefit of this understanding.

Like I said, no evidence will be good enough for you. You will simply harden your heart.
 
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Ben1445

Active Member
Your understanding
Cathode said:
Yes we do.

My understanding comes from Scripture, enlightened by the correct interpretation of it, interpreted from the disciples of the Apostles, Bishops themselves.

You don’t have the benefit of this understanding.

Like I said, no evidence will be good enough for you. You will simply harden your heart.
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is from the hierarchy of your church.
Jesus taught his disciples that the Holy Spirit will teach them.
You have blind faith in a fallible succession of popes.
I trust the Holy Spirit more than the pope and have the Holy Spirit in me.
I prefer not to have my understanding shaded by the “enlightenment” from your church’s many years of compiling errors.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
Your understanding

is from the hierarchy of your church.
Jesus taught his disciples that the Holy Spirit will teach them.
You have blind faith in a fallible succession of popes.
I trust the Holy Spirit more than the pope and have the Holy Spirit in me.
I prefer not to have my understanding shaded by the “enlightenment” from your church’s many years of compiling errors.
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Like I said. You will not accept any evidence presented to you. It is not given to you to understand. It is well beyond you.

You will receive exactly what’s on your heart, and you will feel yourself satisfied. There is no convincing you different.

All the Bishops of the Early Church are stupid to you, and only you are inspired by The Holy Spirit.

Go your way. Harden your heart.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Cathode said:
Like I said. You will not accept any evidence presented to you. It is not given to you to understand. It is well beyond you.

You will receive exactly what’s on your heart, and you will feel yourself satisfied. There is no convincing you different.

All the Bishops of the Early Church are stupid to you, and only you are inspired by The Holy Spirit.

Go your way. Harden your heart.
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We went our way, Cathode, learn to live with it!

Nothing you have presented was given to us by the master Church builder (the apostle Paul) and all that you practice and preach is not found in the Scripture, it's manmade heresies.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
We went our way, Cathode, learn to live with it!
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No, I have a deep dread and am sick from it, I sweat blood over it, I am sorrowful as to die from it. Each day now I feel a new thorn thrust in my skull, every day now is heaped with suffering.

Perhaps it’s better the truth was never even uttered to you.

You do not understand what it costs in the suffering of the Body of Christ to reach out to you. Like an ingrate child that eats and sleeps ignorant of the great bother around them. There are travails only reserved to souls who make up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.
A great generosity has been extended to you.

You are only convinced of your own righteousness, you will not listen.

Nothing you have presented was given to us by the master Church builder (the apostle Paul) and all that you practice and preach is not found in the Scripture, it's manmade heresies.
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As I said. Nothing I present will convince you.
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Cathode said:
No, I have a deep dread and am sick from it, I sweat blood over it, I am sorrowful as to die from it. Each day now I feel a new thorn thrust in my skull, every day now is heaped with suffering.

Perhaps it’s better the truth was never even uttered to you.

You do not understand what it costs in the suffering of the Body of Christ to reach out to you. Like an ingrate child that eats and sleeps ignorant of the great bother around them. There are travails only reserved to souls who make up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.
A great generosity has been extended to you.

You are only convinced of your own righteousness, you will not listen.



As I said. Nothing I present will convince you.
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You need to get over it, Cathode. All who have true faith in our Lord and Savior are born-again.

Being a Catholic or a Baptist has nothing to do with believing in our Lord, trusting Him with our salvation.

You are caught up in artistic and emotional acts of the past, the New Covenant is free from all of that with God the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, and Christ fulfilling all of it 2000 years ago.
 
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Ben1445

Active Member
Your understanding
Cathode said:
Yes we do.

My understanding comes from Scripture, enlightened by the correct interpretation of it, interpreted from the disciples of the Apostles, Bishops themselves.

You don’t have the benefit of this understanding.

Like I said, no evidence will be good enough for you. You will simply harden your heart.
Click to expand...
is from the hierarchy of your church.
Jesus taught his disciples that the Holy Spirit will teach them.
You have blind faith in a fallible succession of popes.
I trust the Holy Spirit more than the pope and have the Holy Spirit in me.
I prefer not to have my understanding shaded by the “enlightenment” from your church’s many years of compiling errors.
Cathode said:
Like I said. You will not accept any evidence presented to you. It is not given to you to understand. It is well beyond you.

You will receive exactly what’s on your heart, and you will feel yourself satisfied. There is no convincing you different.

All the Bishops of the Early Church are stupid to you, and only you are inspired by The Holy Spirit.

Go your way. Harden your heart.
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Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

This is the definition of a church. It is provided by Jesus. There are no mentions of bishops. Just two or three assembled is enough for Jesus to recognize. That is all the recognition I need. I don’t care for the pope’s recognition.
But you will not accept this because you have hardened your heart to the teachings of Christ and only listen to the teachings of the church under fallible people.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
Your understanding

is from the hierarchy of your church.
Jesus taught his disciples that the Holy Spirit will teach them.
You have blind faith in a fallible succession of popes.
I trust the Holy Spirit more than the pope and have the Holy Spirit in me.
I prefer not to have my understanding shaded by the “enlightenment” from your church’s many years of compiling errors.


Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

This is the definition of a church. It is provided by Jesus. There are no mentions of bishops. Just two or three assembled is enough for Jesus to recognize. That is all the recognition I need. I don’t care for the pope’s recognition.
But you will not accept this because you have hardened your heart to the teachings of Christ and only listen to the teachings of the church under fallible people.
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The Councils of Bishops wasn’t just 2 or 3, they were 2 or 3 hundred heads of their churches gathered in Christ’s Name.
You already rely on them for the determining of your Bible Canon, whether you know it or not, or accept it or not.

Overseers, Elders and Deacons was the structure, very hierarchical.

I have given you pearls of contemporaneous evidence, you ignore these and continue on in wilful ignorance.

Break out of your prejudices and look at the evidence dispassionately.

The Fathers I quote are Bishops themselves, heads of their Churches geographically separated but united in one Catholic Faith.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
“For, since ye are subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order, by believing in His death, ye may escape from death. It is therefore necessary that, as ye indeed do, so without the bishop ye should do nothing, but should also be subject to the presbytery, as to the apostle of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall [at last] be found.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, 2 (c. A.D. 110).

If you are subject to Christ, you will be subject to your Bishop as to Christ.
 
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Ben1445

Active Member
Cathode said:
The Councils of Bishops wasn’t just 2 or 3, they were 2 or 3 hundred heads of their churches gathered in Christ’s Name.
You already rely on them for the determining of your Bible Canon, whether you know it or not, or accept it or not.

Overseers, Elders and Deacons was the structure, very hierarchical.

I have given you pearls of contemporaneous evidence, you ignore these and continue on in wilful ignorance.

Break out of your prejudices and look at the evidence dispassionately.

The Fathers I quote are Bishops themselves, heads of their Churches geographically separated but united in one Catholic Faith.
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Like I said, you reject the evidence in Scripture. I tell you what Jesus said and you completely ignore it. You change the subject and don’t listen. If you don’t want to hear Scripture, you can keep your church fathers. You may have your thread back. I will remain with my Bishop and listen to him.

2 Peter 2:21-25 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
Like I said, you reject the evidence in Scripture. I tell you what Jesus said and you completely ignore it. You change the subject and don’t listen. If you don’t want to hear Scripture, you can keep your church fathers. You may have your thread back. I will remain with my Bishop and listen to him.

2 Peter 2:21-25 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
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Christ oversees the Church through His appointed Apostolic Shepherds the Bishops.

“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180).

“Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: ‘I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’ Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers.” Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 1 (A.D. 250).
 
Walter

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ben1445 said:
Like I said, you reject the evidence in Scripture. I tell you what Jesus said and you completely ignore it. You change the subject and don’t listen. If you don’t want to hear Scripture, you can keep your church fathers. You may have your thread back. I will remain with my Bishop and listen to him.

2 Peter 2:21-25 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
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Jesus did not say: 'Whenever two or three are gathered together there is the church'. He said 'I will be in the midst' just as He is with any group of Christians. But, without episcopal oversight the Early Church and Ignatius in particular says they don't constitute a church.

A better discussion for you is whether the office of elder/prebyter became separate as the Church grew and the office of elder (bishop) became that of a person with oversight of a group of churches forming a diocese.
Cathode said:
Christ oversees the Church through His appointed Apostolic Shepherds the Bishops.

“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180).

“Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: ‘I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’ Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers.” Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 1 (A.D. 250).
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Of course, they will always say all these people (including Ignatius who was taught by John) are heretical and NOTHING the early Christians believed should be considered. Only their interpretation of scripture is of worth. Although they will quote the Early Church Father's whenever it serves their purpose in the Baptist Only Forums.

Although they cannot agree on whether the NT teaches Limited Atonement or Unlimited Atonement. Soul Liberty rules all differences in doctrine. Do they believe the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic?
I read enough in the Baptist Only forums to know they have major differences in beliefs..
I'm thankful for a faith that has held fast to the faith once delivered to the saints.
 
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