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Self defense and security teams?

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you believe that self defense is a divinely given right? Therefore, is it wrong or right to have a security team for your church?

On another thread, Oseas3 seemed to be saying that it was wrong to have a church security team. When asked, all he would do is post Bible verses. Well, I have plenty of verses that say it is right to protect your church, pastor, home, etc. with physical violence if need be. Note the following points:

David wrote, " Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight" (Ps. 144:1). When I was young, an idiot told me, "Well that was just spiritual fighting." Wait, isn't this the David who was a mighty man of war, winning many battles in a long life of war? Of course it is.

Then we have Jesus, who used physical violence to drive the wicked thieves out of his own house: "12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves" (Matt. 21:12-13).

I have been a martial artist for over 50 years now, and have taught self defense to many. I believe this is biblical. I am currently on our church security team, and guard our pastor several times a month. I would willingly put myself between an attacker and our pastor and take a literal bullet for him. To anyone who opposes this kind of team, you have forgotten that Satan uses humans to do his dirty work. Since I joined the team, we have had various crimes of violence and larceny committed on our church plant. In this day and age, I recommend all churches to have a security team.

Last week a man came into a church in Wayne, Michigan, with a gun to shoot members with. He injured one before the security team got to him. Yesterday a youth was shot in a church parking lot. The list for just this year is long.

Years ago I preached in a country over near India. They had a full time security force. Members had been beaten up by Muslims on the way home from church. Much had been stolen from the hospital the ministry had, including by Muslim women in those burkas, which can hide a lot, so they had a fence all around the property.

Tell me what you think and I'll get back to you--maybe on Saturday.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Well, the Bible says "Turn the other cheek" but just once -
We have a responsibility to those who attend our events
for reasonable protection.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I do not believe security teams are right...but at the same time I've attended churches and were glad they were there. I just chalk it up to the hypocrite in me.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well, the Bible says "Turn the other cheek" but just once -
We have a responsibility to those who attend our events
for reasonable protection.
I consider the "Turn the other cheek" thing to be just a slap. You don't aim for the cheek if you want to hurt someone. A slap just leaves a little pain but can't do any damage. So a slap is an insult rather than a serious attack. But on the other hand you're right--it doesn't say turn both cheeks!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
That's a confusing statement! :Cautious
I don't think so.

I simply do not believe security teams (armed security) at a church is right.
But I have been in churches where it did feel safer.

What should the church do to an enemy seeking to do harm? Lovingly kill them?

At the same time I have been in areas where I felt safer with security. But how I felt has no bearing on whether it was right or wrong.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Peter was armed (w/ a sword) and of course cut off the ear. (John 18)
But Jesus re-attached the ear. The purpose was "Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?" (John 18:11)

As well if he would have gone before the council and accused Peter of a crime, there was absolutely no evidence.”

But within a church service - those above listed events are not part of the equation. A church has a responsibility
to protect those in attendance.

If you believe that a church should not have a security team, (eg to prevent a mass shooting)
then you would have no problem if a church did not have its youth workers vetted by a security
company to ensure a worker would not molest a 6 year old girl!
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Peter was armed (w/ a sword) and of course cut off the ear. (John 18)
But Jesus re-attached the ear. The purpose was "Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?" (John 18:11)

As well if he would have gone before the council and accused Peter of a crime, there was absolutely no evidence.”

But within a church service - those above listed events are not part of the equation. A church has a responsibility
to protect those in attendance.

If you believe that a church should not have a security team, (eg to prevent a mass shooting)
then you would have no problem if a church did not have its youth workers vetted by a security
company to ensure a worker would not molest a 6 year old girl!
I suppose it depends to an extent on conditions where you live. Here in the UK for instance, nobody is allowed to work with children, whether in the context of a church, a secular youth club, a school, or whatever, without first having been vetted, not by a security company, but by the State. With our strict firearms regulations, shootings are rare, and mass shootings even rarer.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Thank you David -
Good point - different situation in different countries.

and even the same with in the USA - Different States/Commonwealths have different laws....
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
I do not believe security teams are right...but at the same time I've attended churches and were glad they were there. I just chalk it up to the hypocrite in me.

Catholics had Ostiarius or porters or door men in the ancient Early Church, to protect those gathered against the pagan Romans in the persecutions.

They generally had a layered defence at the street, then a gate, then the door, and there were points of escape for people in place.

Ostiarius were very important, almost a Holy order. They also stopped the unbaptised entering during the Eucharist.
Catechumens could not attend the Eucharistic liturgy part of the Mass and left after the sermon and readings. The Eucharist was called the Great Secret.

Whilst many thought it was a great privilege to be captured and martyred, protecting the Eucharist from sacrilege was the highest priority.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I don't think so.

I simply do not believe security teams (armed security) at a church is right.
But I have been in churches where it did feel safer.

What should the church do to an enemy seeking to do harm? Lovingly kill them?

At the same time I have been in areas where I felt safer with security. But how I felt has no bearing on whether it was right or wrong.
Can you share why you think a security team is wrong? As for armed security, almost none of us are armed (except for my fists :Biggrin).

Let me explain more about what our security team does.

1. It prevents crime. Surely this is a good thing! Our head is a retired cop, so he can make arrests. We are trained to liaise with the police in an emergency--we have had crimes committed on our grounds.
2. We can guarantee the security of an attendee in case of a medical emergency, or a natural disaster. (We have plans for each of these.) Folks can feel safe at our church.
3. In a recent meeting, we were taught that we should be friendly and greet all visitors especially, but also church members. We wear tags to show who we are, and wish to give an impression of safety and Christian love.
4. We all are trained in CPR and first aid. We have an EMT and a couple of nurses on the team. We have had quite a few incidents when we had to administer first aid and call an ambulance.
5. We handle far more than violence: lost kids, people wandering the halls not knowing what to do, providing oversight for an adult with a child not their own (a church can be destroyed by false or true accusations), etc. etc.
6. In case of a violent incident, our goal is not to harm them. We are trained to control rather than injure. We would only seek to injure in case of an armed attack.

I believe this is a biblical position. Here is just one passage: "11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain. 12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" Prov. 24:11-12). Again, the security team of the church at Damascus kept Paul safe (Acts 9:25). :Coffee Again, our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Should we not keep the temple safe? The church is also the temple of God (in 1 Cor. 3:16-17, the 2nd person pronoun is plural). Should we not guard God's holy temple?
 
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Cathode

Well-Known Member
Do you believe that self defense is a divinely given right? Therefore, is it wrong or right to have a security team for your church?

On another thread, Oseas3 seemed to be saying that it was wrong to have a church security team. When asked, all he would do is post Bible verses. Well, I have plenty of verses that say it is right to protect your church, pastor, home, etc. with physical violence if need be. Note the following points:

David wrote, " Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight" (Ps. 144:1). When I was young, an idiot told me, "Well that was just spiritual fighting." Wait, isn't this the David who was a mighty man of war, winning many battles in a long life of war? Of course it is.

Then we have Jesus, who used physical violence to drive the wicked thieves out of his own house: "12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves" (Matt. 21:12-13).

I have been a martial artist for over 50 years now, and have taught self defense to many. I believe this is biblical. I am currently on our church security team, and guard our pastor several times a month. I would willingly put myself between an attacker and our pastor and take a literal bullet for him. To anyone who opposes this kind of team, you have forgotten that Satan uses humans to do his dirty work. Since I joined the team, we have had various crimes of violence and larceny committed on our church plant. In this day and age, I recommend all churches to have a security team.

Last week a man came into a church in Wayne, Michigan, with a gun to shoot members with. He injured one before the security team got to him. Yesterday a youth was shot in a church parking lot. The list for just this year is long.

Years ago I preached in a country over near India. They had a full time security force. Members had been beaten up by Muslims on the way home from church. Much had been stolen from the hospital the ministry had, including by Muslim women in those burkas, which can hide a lot, so they had a fence all around the property.

Tell me what you think and I'll get back to you--maybe on Saturday.

I’m also a big believer in physical barriers along with layered defence and alternative points of egress. I studied a lot of history and used it when I did high end security for the government, the ancients can still teach a great deal.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I’m also a big believer in physical barriers along with layered defence and alternative points of egress. I studied a lot of history and used it when I did high end security for the government, the ancients can still teach a great deal.
Good post. Thank you!
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Catholics had Ostiarius or porters or door men in the ancient Early Church, to protect those gathered against the pagan Romans in the persecutions.

They generally had a layered defence at the street, then a gate, then the door, and there were points of escape for people in place.

Ostiarius were very important, almost a Holy order. They also stopped the unbaptised entering during the Eucharist.
Catechumens could not attend the Eucharistic liturgy part of the Mass and left after the sermon and readings. The Eucharist was called the Great Secret.

Whilst many thought it was a great privilege to be captured and martyred, protecting the Eucharist from sacrilege was the highest priority.
Excellent post! I did not know this.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Good post. Thank you!

We also have Jo staffs lined along the back wall disguised as collection socks that you can reach half way into the rows. Changed them to solid red oak. I hand selected them for straight grain full length down the middle with cathedral arches on the outside grain, real heart wood. You can’t break these things no matter how hard the righteous beating you dish out.
But the idea is to mainly use them for soft target thrusting and to restrain rather than the bone breaking strikes, unless they are armed, which would mean only striking the offending limb. Striking the head and neck area is something I consider generally fatal and should be totally avoided.

A fenced off church grounds and gate with heavy Bollards outside the church entrance is an excellent start.
We put in cloister style pillars making an attractive square outside the church entrance so vehicles can’t plough through. The centre of the square has a raised rose bed made with heavy limestone blocks and tonnes of soil in it. You wouldn’t think of it as security feature, it just looks like a classical cloister you would find in any monastery.

The front entrance is also an airlock, so you can contain hostilities in there rather than disturb the church proper.
 
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