If this is your response, you have no serious biblical training. I am looking for a different caliber of discussions. To make sure I don't accidentally bother you again, I Ignored you.
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Differences between Rapture and Second Coming
- Thread starter KUWN
- Start date
37818
Well-Known Member
Doesn't change the Biblical truth the resurrection of believers takes place before the rapture per 1 Thessalonians 4:15.
MATTHEW 24: THE REAL FACTS -> THE REAL FULFILLMENT OF JESUS's PROPHECY
There are several and terrible events in the sermon of JESUS described in Matthew 24
1st EVENT- JESUS PROPHESIED -> THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE - DEN OF THIEVES
THE PROPHECY - MATTHEW 24:1-2
1- When our Lord came out from the Temple, the disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the Temple. (It seems the disciples were exultant and excited and they were talking with the Lord of the greatness and of the beauty of the Temple).
2- And JESUS said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
THE REAL FULFILLMENT OF PROPHECY
See, the testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy, right?
What JESUS prophesied above was LITERALLY fulfilled in the year 70AD, around 40 years after His ascension. There should never again be built another similar man-made Temple, or the old Temple-the den of the thieves- it never came to be rebuilt again as it had been before, but never. Notice that concerning the destruction of the Temple", it has nothing to do with Mount Olives;
THE TERRIBLE PUNISHMENT OF ISRAEL AFTER CRUCIFY AND KILL THE MESSIAH
FIRST, the nation of ISRAEL, included the Temple, the den of thieves, were DESTROYED by complete, and the NATION of ISRAEL too. THE TERRIBLE punishment AGAINST ISRAEL was literalmente according to the Deuteronomy 28:15-68, strong punishments and CURSES, AND ALL WAS destroyed, AND THE PEOPLE who escaped alive from the slaughter were scattered throughout the Earth for 1878 years, yeah, 1878 years, from 70 to 1948.
Yes, 1878 years of SEVERE CURSES and punishments against ISRAEL-Deuteronomy 28:15-68- and the Temple -the den of thieves- there should never again be built another.
And now? Now, after the punishments of 1878 years, will manifest himself the Beast of the earth-Revelation 13;11, the false lamb, the false messiah, in literal fulfillment of John 5:43-47, actually the great dragon, the red dragon-Revelation 12:9.
Now the father of the Jews ->John 8:44 - , will manifest himself in literal fulfillment of John 5:43-47 combined with 2Thessalonians 2:3-13-> but he will be cast down into the bottomless pit, that he should deceive the nations no more in literal fulfillment of -> Revelation 20:1-4.
Be prepared or else get ready
- 2nd EVENT- DESTRUCTION OF THE CURRENT DEVIL's WORLD & SIGNS OF JESUS's COMING
MATTHEW 24:3-8 -
JESUS LISTED SEVERAL EVENTS ABOUT HIS COMING,AND ABOUT THE END OF THE CURRENT WORLD OF DEVIL-MATTHEW 24:3-8
3 And JESUS sat upon the mount of Olives and
the disciples came unto Him PRIVATELY, asking about two things:-->1- What shall be the sign of thy coming? 2- And of the END of the world?
4 JESUS answered the questions of the disciples and gave a LIST of signs unto them of the things that AT FIRST would happen before His coming. as follow:
(1) Take heed that no man deceive you;
(2) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (John 5:43-48 combined with Revelation 13:11-18, take a look); and shall DECEIVE many;
(3) And ye shall hear of WARS and RUMOURS of WARS: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, BUT THE END IS NOT YET;
(4) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom;
(5) and there shall be famines;
(6) and pestilences;
(7) and earthquakes, in divers places;
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
But JESUS continued prophesying and warning His people, saying: All these things are the beginning of sorrows, and all these things MUST come to pass, but the END is not yet.<--> In fact, it is a PRE-TRIBULATION PERIOD, AND JUST NOW THIS PRE-TRIBULATIONAL PERIOD is FULFILLING LITERALLY.
This is a perilous perilous time-> Matthew 24:9-14 combined with 2Timothy 3:1-5, take a look, be prepared or else Get ready. Very very terrible time, but the wrath of GOD MUST come and they will suffer everlasting perdition and destruction.
And the worst will still come after, in fulffillment of Matthew 24:15-25. Get ready.
ABOUT RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
By the way, when will be the END of all things? It's easy to know by the Word of GOD: 1Corinthians 15:24-26 combined with Daniel 12:1-3 and 7-12 --> and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 combined with Revelation 11:15-18, among many other biblical references, mainly Isaiah 26:19-21, take a look.
GOD BLESS
Be careful or else get ready, because the worst is coming in literal fulfillment of the prophecies of JESUS. The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy->Revelation 19:10 combined with Matthew 24:35, take a look.
There are several and terrible events in the sermon of JESUS described in Matthew 24
1st EVENT- JESUS PROPHESIED -> THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE - DEN OF THIEVES
THE PROPHECY - MATTHEW 24:1-2
1- When our Lord came out from the Temple, the disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the Temple. (It seems the disciples were exultant and excited and they were talking with the Lord of the greatness and of the beauty of the Temple).
2- And JESUS said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
THE REAL FULFILLMENT OF PROPHECY
See, the testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy, right?
What JESUS prophesied above was LITERALLY fulfilled in the year 70AD, around 40 years after His ascension. There should never again be built another similar man-made Temple, or the old Temple-the den of the thieves- it never came to be rebuilt again as it had been before, but never. Notice that concerning the destruction of the Temple", it has nothing to do with Mount Olives;
THE TERRIBLE PUNISHMENT OF ISRAEL AFTER CRUCIFY AND KILL THE MESSIAH
FIRST, the nation of ISRAEL, included the Temple, the den of thieves, were DESTROYED by complete, and the NATION of ISRAEL too. THE TERRIBLE punishment AGAINST ISRAEL was literalmente according to the Deuteronomy 28:15-68, strong punishments and CURSES, AND ALL WAS destroyed, AND THE PEOPLE who escaped alive from the slaughter were scattered throughout the Earth for 1878 years, yeah, 1878 years, from 70 to 1948.
Yes, 1878 years of SEVERE CURSES and punishments against ISRAEL-Deuteronomy 28:15-68- and the Temple -the den of thieves- there should never again be built another.
And now? Now, after the punishments of 1878 years, will manifest himself the Beast of the earth-Revelation 13;11, the false lamb, the false messiah, in literal fulfillment of John 5:43-47, actually the great dragon, the red dragon-Revelation 12:9.
Now the father of the Jews ->John 8:44 - , will manifest himself in literal fulfillment of John 5:43-47 combined with 2Thessalonians 2:3-13-> but he will be cast down into the bottomless pit, that he should deceive the nations no more in literal fulfillment of -> Revelation 20:1-4.
Be prepared or else get ready
- 2nd EVENT- DESTRUCTION OF THE CURRENT DEVIL's WORLD & SIGNS OF JESUS's COMING
MATTHEW 24:3-8 -
JESUS LISTED SEVERAL EVENTS ABOUT HIS COMING,AND ABOUT THE END OF THE CURRENT WORLD OF DEVIL-MATTHEW 24:3-8
3 And JESUS sat upon the mount of Olives and
the disciples came unto Him PRIVATELY, asking about two things:-->1- What shall be the sign of thy coming? 2- And of the END of the world?
4 JESUS answered the questions of the disciples and gave a LIST of signs unto them of the things that AT FIRST would happen before His coming. as follow:
(1) Take heed that no man deceive you;
(2) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (John 5:43-48 combined with Revelation 13:11-18, take a look); and shall DECEIVE many;
(3) And ye shall hear of WARS and RUMOURS of WARS: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, BUT THE END IS NOT YET;
(4) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom;
(5) and there shall be famines;
(6) and pestilences;
(7) and earthquakes, in divers places;
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
But JESUS continued prophesying and warning His people, saying: All these things are the beginning of sorrows, and all these things MUST come to pass, but the END is not yet.<--> In fact, it is a PRE-TRIBULATION PERIOD, AND JUST NOW THIS PRE-TRIBULATIONAL PERIOD is FULFILLING LITERALLY.
This is a perilous perilous time-> Matthew 24:9-14 combined with 2Timothy 3:1-5, take a look, be prepared or else Get ready. Very very terrible time, but the wrath of GOD MUST come and they will suffer everlasting perdition and destruction.
And the worst will still come after, in fulffillment of Matthew 24:15-25. Get ready.
ABOUT RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
By the way, when will be the END of all things? It's easy to know by the Word of GOD: 1Corinthians 15:24-26 combined with Daniel 12:1-3 and 7-12 --> and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 combined with Revelation 11:15-18, among many other biblical references, mainly Isaiah 26:19-21, take a look.
GOD BLESS
Be careful or else get ready, because the worst is coming in literal fulfillment of the prophecies of JESUS. The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy->Revelation 19:10 combined with Matthew 24:35, take a look.
Similarity between passing by the Red Sea and by the Red Dragon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - PUT THIS IN YOUR MIND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - THE RED SEA AND THE RED DRAGON ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe you know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea, and walk through a desert, walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of...
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Mt. 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Which resurrection was this?
37818
Well-Known Member
A temporal resurrection that occurred on day Christ rose from the dead.
Only reported in Matthew 27:52-53.
And the first resurrection is not a resurrection of temporal (earthy rather than spiritual) bodies?
37818
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:23, . . . the redemption of our body.
1 John 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Yes, combined with John 2:28 and Philippians 3:20-21. Aleluia.
So you aren’t really answering the original question. I think I know less about what you were trying to say than when I started.
Would you mind clarifying what resurrection was taking place in Matthew 27?
37818
Well-Known Member
I thought I was explicit. The resurrections of others in Matthew 27:52-53 are temporary, not part of the first resurrection Revelation 20:6 prior to the rapture per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
While I can’t say definitively that they continued an upward journey, you can’t show me anywhere that they went back to their graves.
Since it doesn’t say clearly, it is not a hill for me to die on. I don’t see how their own resurrection being accomplished is against Scripture.
37818
Well-Known Member
It doesn't change the fact Matthew 27:52-53 is not part of first resurrection, Revelation 20:6.
Neither is anyone who is not “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;”
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
are they alive today?
I am not saying that they are walking around on this earth. For all I know they continued their walking in a heavenly direction. It doesn’t say. Alive? Yes. I don’t believe in soul sleep. With their physical bodies? It doesn’t say. I’m happy to believe either way with sufficient evidence from Scripture. There are too many opinions about things that Scripture doesn’t actually say.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
my point is if they died again. Like Lazarus most likely did. Then they were not part of a real ressurection.. They were woke from sleep so to speak,
the first resurrection is when we are resurrected to eternal life and everything that comes with it. Including a new body which can not die
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming/PAROUSIA of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
What is the parousia?
The future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up/Harpazo together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
The Harpazo is the rapture or removal of believers. So, put it all together.
The passage is saying that the rapture/harpazo happens 'at the Parousia' which is when Jesus returns to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God. That can ONLY happen at the end of tribulation when Jesus returns to set up his kingdom.
What is the parousia?
The future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up/Harpazo together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
The Harpazo is the rapture or removal of believers. So, put it all together.
The passage is saying that the rapture/harpazo happens 'at the Parousia' which is when Jesus returns to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God. That can ONLY happen at the end of tribulation when Jesus returns to set up his kingdom.
The three things pre-tribbers had to change to support their pre-trib fallacy is
1. The elect. 2. The fig tree. 3. The last trump.
I was fortunate enough to have an online conversation with Joel Rosenberg about this. He said that pre-trib 'experts' KNOW they're wrong but believe pre-trib causes people to convert and that they won't come clean about it but will let the events prove them wrong.
Do you really think that the thousands of highly respected authors would admit a major pre-trib blunder after making millions selling book promoting pre-trib? For them to come clean on the issue throws thousands of well respected authors under the bus!
How do pre-tribbers overcome Jesus' declaration that the gathering occurs AFETR tribulation?
They claim that Mathew 24 is meant for Jews and NOT the Church. They have to do this because in Mathew 24 Jesus clearly says the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation! His words alone DEBUNK pre-trib. They use the word 'elect' and the 'fig tree' to support pre-trib claiming Jews are the elect and the fig tree always indicates Israel.
The word ELECT.
Not once in the New Testament does the word elect/chosen imply Jews. In Mathew 24 it implies BELIEVERS whether Jew or Gentile. In every instance in the NT 'elect' refers either to BELIEVERS, Jesus, or angels. This is Strong's definition of elect.
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians.
The Fig Tree
Pre-tribbers tell us, "the fig tree represents Israel - the 1948 Jewish generation."
NOTHING in the chapter indicates it's meant for Jews OR that the fig tree represents Israel. Those ideas are clearly debunked.
Mathew 24 is about the parousia and the events leading up to the consummation of the age.
The Parousia is mentioned in verses 3, 27, 27, and 39. It takes one very misled person to believe this chapter is for only for Jews OR that the olive tree represents Israel.
The Disciples asked, "What is the sign of thy\~parousia\~and the consummation of the age."
PAROUSIA presence
the coming, arrival, advent
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
_____________________________________
It has absolutely nothing to do with the Jews. How can this be 1948? Almost three generations have passed since then! The Jews don't even believe in Jesus! The word ELECT indicates CHRISTIANS! Not once in the NT does the word elect or chosen imply Jews.
The generation Jesus is referring to is the one that SEES all the things pass that he mentioned between verses 3 and 31. He uses a fig tree to illustrate. When the branch is tender and puts forth leaves - Summer is near -LIKEWISE - when you see events pass Jesus was talking about previously - HIS RETRUN - PAROUSIA IS NEAR!
It's not that difficult to figure out. The 1948 Jewish generation is long gone. (40-44 years)
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Nothing implies Israel. It has to be fabricated inti the mix.
Not one word in Mt. 24 suggest this message is directed to or about the Jewish nation. NOTHING!
The Last Trumpet
This is where the real fabricated nonsense of pre-trib comes in. Pre-tribbers tell us...
\ldblquote The Last Trump\rdblquote Is A Direct Reference to the Last Trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets."
The reason for turning the 'last trump' into a Jewish Trumpet - a religion that rejects Jesus - is because the 7th trumpet clearly debunks pre-trib.
What clearly debunks pre-trib is Revelation 8:6 "Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."
So according to Pre-trib - it's not going to be an angel of the Lord that sounds the last trump - it's a Jewish trumpet which means - THERE'S GOING TO BE AN ANGEL THAT DOESN'T SOUND!
Strong's says, "the trumpet after which no other will sound, 1 Corinthians 15:52,"
last in time or in place
last in a series of places
last in a temporal succession
The LAST TRUMP is the trumpet after which no other will sound, 1 Corinthians 15:52. THERE'S NO REASON AT ALL TO TAKE THIS OUT OF CONTEXT and pervert the hell out of it. You expect me to believe that the dead will rise and believers changed when a Jewish Trumpet is sounded when there's still ONE angel remaining to sound?
The nonsense in all this is exposed by Revelation 8:6
"Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."
It's disappointing and disturbing to see so many people believing in pre-trib. The teaching is so contradictory and fabricated that I believe it is an abomination. People believe it because there are so many 'prophecy experts' pushing this perverted teaching. In Mathew 24 Jesus said the gathering/rapture occurs AFTER the tribulation. How have pre-tribbers overcome this? By adding another return, another rapture, another trumpet, etc.
1. The elect. 2. The fig tree. 3. The last trump.
I was fortunate enough to have an online conversation with Joel Rosenberg about this. He said that pre-trib 'experts' KNOW they're wrong but believe pre-trib causes people to convert and that they won't come clean about it but will let the events prove them wrong.
Do you really think that the thousands of highly respected authors would admit a major pre-trib blunder after making millions selling book promoting pre-trib? For them to come clean on the issue throws thousands of well respected authors under the bus!
How do pre-tribbers overcome Jesus' declaration that the gathering occurs AFETR tribulation?
They claim that Mathew 24 is meant for Jews and NOT the Church. They have to do this because in Mathew 24 Jesus clearly says the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation! His words alone DEBUNK pre-trib. They use the word 'elect' and the 'fig tree' to support pre-trib claiming Jews are the elect and the fig tree always indicates Israel.
The word ELECT.
Not once in the New Testament does the word elect/chosen imply Jews. In Mathew 24 it implies BELIEVERS whether Jew or Gentile. In every instance in the NT 'elect' refers either to BELIEVERS, Jesus, or angels. This is Strong's definition of elect.
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians.
The Fig Tree
Pre-tribbers tell us, "the fig tree represents Israel - the 1948 Jewish generation."
NOTHING in the chapter indicates it's meant for Jews OR that the fig tree represents Israel. Those ideas are clearly debunked.
Mathew 24 is about the parousia and the events leading up to the consummation of the age.
The Parousia is mentioned in verses 3, 27, 27, and 39. It takes one very misled person to believe this chapter is for only for Jews OR that the olive tree represents Israel.
The Disciples asked, "What is the sign of thy\~parousia\~and the consummation of the age."
PAROUSIA presence
the coming, arrival, advent
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
_____________________________________
It has absolutely nothing to do with the Jews. How can this be 1948? Almost three generations have passed since then! The Jews don't even believe in Jesus! The word ELECT indicates CHRISTIANS! Not once in the NT does the word elect or chosen imply Jews.
The generation Jesus is referring to is the one that SEES all the things pass that he mentioned between verses 3 and 31. He uses a fig tree to illustrate. When the branch is tender and puts forth leaves - Summer is near -LIKEWISE - when you see events pass Jesus was talking about previously - HIS RETRUN - PAROUSIA IS NEAR!
It's not that difficult to figure out. The 1948 Jewish generation is long gone. (40-44 years)
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Nothing implies Israel. It has to be fabricated inti the mix.
Not one word in Mt. 24 suggest this message is directed to or about the Jewish nation. NOTHING!
The Last Trumpet
This is where the real fabricated nonsense of pre-trib comes in. Pre-tribbers tell us...
\ldblquote The Last Trump\rdblquote Is A Direct Reference to the Last Trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets."
The reason for turning the 'last trump' into a Jewish Trumpet - a religion that rejects Jesus - is because the 7th trumpet clearly debunks pre-trib.
What clearly debunks pre-trib is Revelation 8:6 "Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."
So according to Pre-trib - it's not going to be an angel of the Lord that sounds the last trump - it's a Jewish trumpet which means - THERE'S GOING TO BE AN ANGEL THAT DOESN'T SOUND!
Strong's says, "the trumpet after which no other will sound, 1 Corinthians 15:52,"
last in time or in place
last in a series of places
last in a temporal succession
The LAST TRUMP is the trumpet after which no other will sound, 1 Corinthians 15:52. THERE'S NO REASON AT ALL TO TAKE THIS OUT OF CONTEXT and pervert the hell out of it. You expect me to believe that the dead will rise and believers changed when a Jewish Trumpet is sounded when there's still ONE angel remaining to sound?
The nonsense in all this is exposed by Revelation 8:6
"Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."
It's disappointing and disturbing to see so many people believing in pre-trib. The teaching is so contradictory and fabricated that I believe it is an abomination. People believe it because there are so many 'prophecy experts' pushing this perverted teaching. In Mathew 24 Jesus said the gathering/rapture occurs AFTER the tribulation. How have pre-tribbers overcome this? By adding another return, another rapture, another trumpet, etc.
PAROUSIA is a reference to Jesus' presence among the believers at the meeting place in the air. If you read my OP you would have seen how the Rapture and the Second Coming have nothing in common. For example, at the Rapture Jesus comes FOR his own, while at the 2nd Coming he comes WITH his own. I list 15 differences so as to head off those who try to put the two separate comings together. See my OP, not post tribber has answered that list yet.
I have heard all these arguments before back in the 70s. I can tell you are not a well read bible student. You need to read scholarly works, not pop writers. Who are you reading regarding the Pre Trib Rapture? What you said about pre tribbers was partially true back in the late 70s. Most evangelical scholars today teach a pre trib Rapture. One doctrine you completely overlooked is Dispensationalism.