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On what does Christianity stand?

JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@37818 made the statement that Christianity stands or falls on the text of the New Testament.

I have been thinking about this and am not sure it is correct.

For one, it would mean that Christianity did not exist until enough of the NT was written to compose a trustworthy witness in the eyes of readers.

But more importantly, it misses the mark when it comes to Christianity itself. If one hears the gospel and is saved, having never read the NT himself, is he less a Christian?

If so, how much of the NT must a saved person read before he is a Christian?



Our faith stands on and in Christ. That is unique. Christianity does not stand or fall on any sacred text.
I think anybody who has experienced salvation knows this, at least at some level.


This, obviously, does not diminish Scripture. I am saying we should not diminish Christ.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Eternally Grateful said:
Abraham Believed God and God accounted it to him for righteousness.

Before Abraham, I am
Click to expand...
Yep. This was before Christianity but Abraham believed the Promise. Our faith stands, IMHO, on Christ Himself.

Scripture is, obviously, important. In terms of Christianity I suppose the gospel is even more important. But this is how we come to a knowledge. Our faith itself stands on Christ.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
37818 said:
@JonC,
Did you come to trust in Christ and know God without the Christian New Testament? How? Or why not?
Click to expand...
Yes. By the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I actually know many who did not read the New Testament until after they had come to know Christ.

Do you believe Christians existed before the New Testament was written?
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
37818 said:
If one believes the events written in the New Testament, yes.
Click to expand...
I disagree. One does not have to believe, for example, that Jesus walked on water in order ti be saved. One has to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Is the gospel of Jesus Christ in the New Testament? Yes.

BUT did the gospel of Jesus Christ exist before the New Testament (the....what'd you say....the 27 books of the NT)? No.

What if a person only had the Gospel of Matthew? Is he beyond redemption?

What if a person only heard the gospel second or third hand and did not even know the Bible existed? Is he beyond redemption?

Christianity does not stand on the text of Scripture, no matter how important Scripture is, but on the Person of Jesus Christ, on the Savior.
 
E

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
JonC said:
Yep. This was before Christianity but Abraham believed the Promise. Our faith stands, IMHO, on Christ Himself.

Scripture is, obviously, important. In terms of Christianity I suppose the gospel is even more important. But this is how we come to a knowledge. Our faith itself stands on Christ.
Click to expand...
abraham is the father of christianity if we look at romans 4..
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Eternally Grateful said:
abraham is the father of christianity if we look at romans 4..
Click to expand...
Romans 4 is dealing with Abraham's faith. Here is the conclusion:

"The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

Christian comes from Christos and indicates a "follower of Christ", not Abraham.
 
E

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
JonC said:
Romans 4 is dealing with Abraham's faith. Here is the conclusion:

"The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

Christian comes from Christos and indicates a "follower of Christ", not Abraham.
Click to expand...
go earlier

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did

the abrahamic covenant is actually the covenant we fall under

In you shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Christ is his son.

to follow christ, is top become a child of abraham

yes the name christian was given after christ. but we all belong to the same family. thoguh the seed of abraham (christ)
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Eternally Grateful said:
go earlier

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did

the abrahamic covenant is actually the covenant we fall under

In you shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Christ is his son.

to follow christ, is top become a child of abraham

yes the name christian was given after christ. but we all belong to the same family. thoguh the seed of abraham (christ)
Click to expand...
We are Abraham's "spiritual descendants" (that is the point Paul makes if faith). It was to Abraham the Promise was given and by faith in this Promise that he was reckoned righteous. But Christians are followers of Christ, not Abraham. Abraham is not the basis for Christianity.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Galatians 3:16-17, Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
 
E

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
JonC said:
We are Abraham's "spiritual descendants" (that is the point Paul makes if faith). It was to Abraham the Promise was given and by faith in this Promise that he was reckoned righteous. But Christians are followers of Christ, not Abraham. Abraham is not the basis for Christianity.
Click to expand...
I do not think you understand what I am saying

so I will move on.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
@37818 made the statement that Christianity stands or falls on the text of the New Testament.

I have been thinking about this and am not sure it is correct.

For one, it would mean that Christianity did not exist until enough of the NT was written to compose a trustworthy witness in the eyes of readers.

But more importantly, it misses the mark when it comes to Christianity itself. If one hears the gospel and is saved, having never read the NT himself, is he less a Christian?

If so, how much of the NT must a saved person read before he is a Christian?



Our faith stands on and in Christ. That is unique. Christianity does not stand or fall on any sacred text.
I think anybody who has experienced salvation knows this, at least at some level.


This, obviously, does not diminish Scripture. I am saying we should not diminish Christ.
Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit uses the scriptures though in the very process of saving a lost sinner

Eternally Grateful said:
Abraham Believed God and God accounted it to him for righteousness.

Before Abraham, I am
Click to expand...
Abraham received from God the revelation of God before it became the written word

JonC said:
Yep. This was before Christianity but Abraham believed the Promise. Our faith stands, IMHO, on Christ Himself.

Scripture is, obviously, important. In terms of Christianity I suppose the gospel is even more important. But this is how we come to a knowledge. Our faith itself stands on Christ.
Click to expand...
Faith comes about by hearing the very word of God

37818 said:
@JonC,
Did you come to trust in Christ and know God without the Christian New Testament? How? Or why not?
Click to expand...
One cannot be saved apart from the witness of the written word of God in some fashion

JonC said:
Yes. By the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I actually know many who did not read the New Testament until after they had come to know Christ.

Do you believe Christians existed before the New Testament was written?
Click to expand...
Yes, but that was due to them hearing the oral revelation of the Apostle themselves

JonC said:
I disagree. One does not have to believe, for example, that Jesus walked on water in order ti be saved. One has to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Is the gospel of Jesus Christ in the New Testament? Yes.

BUT did the gospel of Jesus Christ exist before the New Testament (the....what'd you say....the 27 books of the NT)? No.

What if a person only had the Gospel of Matthew? Is he beyond redemption?

What if a person only heard the gospel second or third hand and did not even know the Bible existed? Is he beyond redemption?

Christianity does not stand on the text of Scripture, no matter how important Scripture is, but on the Person of Jesus Christ, on the Savior.
Click to expand...
Who is revealed in a saving fashion ONLY in the scriptures of God
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Eternally Grateful said:
I do not think you understand what I am saying

so I will move on.
Click to expand...
I may not be. I was speaking of Christianity standing in Christ.

JesusFan said:
The Holy Spirit uses the scriptures though in the very process of saving a lost sinner
Click to expand...
So the Holy Spirit can not use the one who preaches the gospel?

JesusFan said:
Faith comes about by hearing the very word of God
Click to expand...
"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ"

JesusFan said:
One cannot be saved apart from the witness of the written word of God in some fashion
Click to expand...
How were people saved before they had the NT text?

JesusFan said:
Yes, but that was due to them hearing the oral revelation of the Apostle themselves
Click to expand...
So why share the gosoel at all if one must have "the witness of the written word of God" (your words)?

JesusFan said:
Who is revealed in a saving fashion ONLY in the scriptures of God
Click to expand...
Not really. I can explain the gospel to somebody and they can believe and be saved. They are no less Christian for not reading the New Testament.

The New Testament communicates the gospel, on that we agree.

But Christianity stands on Christ.

If Christianity were simply a matter of reading and deciding (cognitive acceptance) then you may have a point. But we are transformed, reborn.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
I may not be. I was speaking of Christianity standing in Christ.


So the Holy Spirit can not use the one who preaches the gospel?


"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ"


How were people saved before they had the NT text?


So why share the gosoel at all if one must have "the witness of the written word of God" (your words)?


Not really. I can explain the gospel to somebody and they can believe and be saved. They are no less Christian for not reading the New Testament.

The New Testament communicates the gospel, on that we agree.

But Christianity stands on Christ.

If Christianity were simply a matter of reading and deciding (cognitive acceptance) then you may have a point. But we are transformed, reborn.
Click to expand...
We are commissioned to send forth the good news of the Gospel message, to preach and teach that message, for that is the sacred scriptures' used by the Holy Spirit to save lost sinners

JonC said:
Well stated. :Thumbsup
Click to expand...
How would one even know of that truth without scriptures though?

JonC said:
I may not be. I was speaking of Christianity standing in Christ.


So the Holy Spirit can not use the one who preaches the gospel?


"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ"


How were people saved before they had the NT text?


So why share the gosoel at all if one must have "the witness of the written word of God" (your words)?


Not really. I can explain the gospel to somebody and they can believe and be saved. They are no less Christian for not reading the New Testament.

The New Testament communicates the gospel, on that we agree.

But Christianity stands on Christ.

If Christianity were simply a matter of reading and deciding (cognitive acceptance) then you may have a point. But we are transformed, reborn.
Click to expand...
Lost sinners always were saved by the Holy Spirit enabling them to hear and receive with faith scriptures spoken forth to them, either from the bible or from a prophet or apostle whose words were also as to scriptures

JonC said:
No, the gospel is not the sacred Scriptures. Scripture contains the gospel account. But the gospel existed prior to the writing of the NT.
Click to expand...
When I say sacred scriptures refer to entire canonized books. all 66 of them

JonC said:
How do you know Scripture is true?
Click to expand...
The Author who inspired them can confirm their truth
 
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