1 John 5:1 revisited.

Dave G said:

Dave,
Who is the Bible written to?

All men, or....

There it is.

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Yes, that's the point, they already believe. The Epistle was written so they would know these things? What are the things that they needed to know? Go through the Epistle. John am I saved? Am I born again? Am I this and that? How do I know?

How do I know if I'm born again? Do you believe? Yes. Then you are born again. To read it as 'You first believed because you were already born again is going way beyond the text. It's not the cause of faith that is being addressed here. The whole book goes through the evidences of a true Christian. That's the context.

Dave... said:

Yes, that's the point, they already believe. The Epistle was written so they would know these things? What are the things that they needed to know? Go through the Epistle. John am I saved? Am I born again? Am I this and that? How do I know?

How do I know if I'm born again? Do you believe? Yes. Then you are born again. To read it as 'You first believed because you were already born again is going way beyond the text. It's not the cause of faith that is being addressed here. The whole book goes through the evidences of a true Christian. That's the context.

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Never mind Dave, I can see that you're not seeing the same things that I am when I read it, which is why we disagree.

That said, I now take my leave of this thread as well.
May God bless you, sir.

Dave G said:

We have the pieces in significant statements.
How one puts them together is just as important as seeing each piece, my friend.

For example, where does our faith as believers in Jesus Christ ( God's elect ) come from?
Have you not read:

" Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Again, where does the believer's faith actually come from?

" We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." ( Galatians 2:15-16 ). <--- The faith "of" ( in the Greek, the word means "from" ) Jesus Christ.

" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. " ( Galatians 2:20 ).

" But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." ( Galatians 3:22 ).

" But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: " ( Romans 3:21-22 )

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

The faith "of" ( by or from ) Jesus Christ...which, by the way, is yet another evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of a true believer.
They have faith, and it's the kind that does not fail under the trials and tribulations of this life.


Did you miss these, Dave?
I did, for approximately 10 years after I first picked up the Bible and started studying it for myself.

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Dave

The answer is right there in the Scripture that you posted.

Anything from the Spirit, begins when we have the Spirit. That's the gift part. It's not from the flesh, but from the Spirit. Gal. 3:2-3. That's what Jesus Authored and will finish. The grace is the gifts that are given by way of, or through faith Ephesians 2:8-10.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have ***access by faith into this grace in which we stand***, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

When does Christ live in a believer? When they have His Spirit in them. That's a result of faith.

The faith spoken about is from the Spirit. We received the Holy Spirit as a result of believing.

The 'faith of Jesus' Read it again. Galatians 3:22

"The Promise *Stop* by faith *stop* of Jesus Christ *stop* might be given to them who believe."

In other words, the Promise of Jesus Christ that comes by faith might be given to those who believe.

That's what I said. Romans 3:21 likewise.

Yes, His workmanship, created "in Christ Jesus". When does it begin?

Galatians 3:2-3 is your answer.

The Gospel is believe and be saved.

I'm out of time. I'll fish this and the other thread tomorrow.

Dave G said:

We have the pieces in significant statements.
How one puts them together is just as important as seeing each piece, my friend.

For example, where does our faith as believers in Jesus Christ ( God's elect ) come from?
Have you not read:

" Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Again, where does the believer's faith actually come from?

Click to expand...

Dave, "our" from that passage means the writer of Hebrews and those who he is speaking, or writing to. They "our" (pun intended) believers. "Faith" here means "life", or "salvation". You can see the same word used in Acts 3:15. You can compare all the translations if you like. The NKJV uses the word "Prince". The point being, that in Acts 3:15, Jesus is called the Author/Prince/Source/Pioneer/ *of life*. That's what is meant in Hebrews passage also. That "life", or "faith" begins when we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling. Ephesians 2:8-10 says the same thing, we receive the gifts of grace though faith. (See Romans 5:1-2).

That's what Paul said in Galatians 3:2-3...

This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

That life, or faith, begins with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is the result of faith.

The same thing is being said in Philippians 1:29. The context is not initial belief, but ongoing belief. Look what he says in verse 6 of that same book and Chapter....

6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

That's the life, the faith spoken about in Hebrews.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

In short, the "life", or "faith" being spoken about in Hebrews is when we receive the Holy Spirit, which is a result of faith, or believing. Without whom, we have no life. Also see Romans 8:6-14. It's just called "faith" in Hebrews 11.

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Lets look at another translation of these passages that you posted, Dave. I'll use the NKJV. The one that updating the outdated English of the original. Lets look at the same Scripture and see what it says.

Dave G said:

" We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." ( Galatians 2:15-16 ). <--- The faith "of" ( in the Greek, the word means "from" ) Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

NKJV Bible
Galatians 2:15-16 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Dave G said:

" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. " ( Galatians 2:20 ).

Click to expand...

NKJV
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Dave G said:

" But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." ( Galatians 3:22 ).

Click to expand...

NKJV Bible
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe

Dave G said:

" But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: " ( Romans 3:21-22 )

Click to expand...

NKJV Bible
Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

Dave G said:

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

The faith "of" ( by or from ) Jesus Christ...which, by the way, is yet another evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of a true believer.
They have faith, and it's the kind that does not fail under the trials and tribulations of this life.


Did you miss these, Dave?
I did, for approximately 10 years after I first picked up the Bible and started studying it for myself.

Click to expand...

NKJV Bible
Ephesians 2:8-10 r by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Dave. personally, I've never been a big fan of the original KJV. If you do what I did above with any of the newer reliable translations, I'm sure that you'll see the same results. NEV, NIV, NAS, etc. People usually cling to the KJV because they have put al lot of effort into making it say something that it doesn't say, and the newer translations expose those ideas as not being Biblical. that's the main reason that they don't like them.