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Should Christians Hold to any form of Theistic Evolution then?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
The seven 'days' of Genesis is a time-compressed description of the evolution that took place over millions of years, according to a lecture by 9Mark Dever and his mentor Roy Clements to the Cambridge Inter-Collegiate Christian Union:
(right click, save link as, for direct download of audio file) CICCU • Dever and Clements on Christians and Science
38:30-39:55
CLEMENTS: "In fact if you think about it, Genesis chapter One does portray an evolutionary model. It would have been very easy for the ancient author, knowing nothing at all about evolution, to have simply said the whole of the universe suddenly sprang into being by a single divine fiat, with no progress, no development at all, but no, he spreads it out over seven days, and he says that material things emerged first: light, and the earth, and the heavens, and then plants before animals, and marine animals come before land animals, and the human race comes only at the very end.
In an astonishing way, he anticipates the general sort of evolutionary scheme, without any of the evolutionary details. So I don't have any great difficulty in accepting that if evolution was the way it happened, that God might have used such a mechanism for the production of the variety of species that we see, and I don't find any great difficulty harmonising that with Genesis One. But there are some Christians who feel that the seven days have to be taken with a greater degree of literalness than I feel is necessary, and they must look for another solution to the problem."
1:12:00-1:13:20
DEVER "The word Yom there in the Hebrew is used very similarly to the way we use the word Day, and it means many different things. I'm not sure I want to say exactly what Roy said on that, but I think, as a Christian who certainly believes in the truth of scripture there's nothing he's said that's inconsistent with that."
CLEMENTS: "If it were a twenty four hour day, I favour the view that it was a twenty four hours of revelation, maybe the prophet saw the vision over the space of seven days, but I don't think the prophet could possibly have been given an actual time scale to set against the things he was seeing happen. They had to have taken place in a time-collapsed way. He couldn't possibly have seen them, in my view, across the spectrum of the time the took, if they took millions of years, as science would say. He would have to have seen it in a time-collapsed way."
DEVER - "And I would say of course He could have done it in that way, and of course the prophet could have seen it that way, but the point is the word doesn't necessitate, the word Yom, doesn't necessitate you or me or Roy looking at it any one of those —"
CLEMENTS - "There are a whole host of ways of harmonising Genesis One with scientific accounts of origins. Some are seven-day Creationists, Young Earth view, I respect that view, but I don't hold it myself."
(right click, save link as, for direct download of audio file) CICCU • Dever and Clements on Christians and Science
38:30-39:55
CLEMENTS: "In fact if you think about it, Genesis chapter One does portray an evolutionary model. It would have been very easy for the ancient author, knowing nothing at all about evolution, to have simply said the whole of the universe suddenly sprang into being by a single divine fiat, with no progress, no development at all, but no, he spreads it out over seven days, and he says that material things emerged first: light, and the earth, and the heavens, and then plants before animals, and marine animals come before land animals, and the human race comes only at the very end.
In an astonishing way, he anticipates the general sort of evolutionary scheme, without any of the evolutionary details. So I don't have any great difficulty in accepting that if evolution was the way it happened, that God might have used such a mechanism for the production of the variety of species that we see, and I don't find any great difficulty harmonising that with Genesis One. But there are some Christians who feel that the seven days have to be taken with a greater degree of literalness than I feel is necessary, and they must look for another solution to the problem."
1:12:00-1:13:20
DEVER "The word Yom there in the Hebrew is used very similarly to the way we use the word Day, and it means many different things. I'm not sure I want to say exactly what Roy said on that, but I think, as a Christian who certainly believes in the truth of scripture there's nothing he's said that's inconsistent with that."
CLEMENTS: "If it were a twenty four hour day, I favour the view that it was a twenty four hours of revelation, maybe the prophet saw the vision over the space of seven days, but I don't think the prophet could possibly have been given an actual time scale to set against the things he was seeing happen. They had to have taken place in a time-collapsed way. He couldn't possibly have seen them, in my view, across the spectrum of the time the took, if they took millions of years, as science would say. He would have to have seen it in a time-collapsed way."
DEVER - "And I would say of course He could have done it in that way, and of course the prophet could have seen it that way, but the point is the word doesn't necessitate, the word Yom, doesn't necessitate you or me or Roy looking at it any one of those —"
CLEMENTS - "There are a whole host of ways of harmonising Genesis One with scientific accounts of origins. Some are seven-day Creationists, Young Earth view, I respect that view, but I don't hold it myself."
One cannot hold to evolution and believe in a literal historical biblical account of Genesis, would have to see it as myth or allegory
Theistic Evolution - a product of mans imagination?
(Gen 6:5 KJV) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Enough said.
(Gen 6:5 KJV) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Enough said.
Should Christians Hold to any form of Theistic Evolution then?
How would Theism deny a Creator?
~~~~~~~~
There are many different models of Theistic evolution, every one expresses belief in a Creator God.
FYI, the more acceptable, modern expression for Theistic Evolution is Evolutionary Creationism.
BioLogos is a leading organization which expresses support for an Old Earth and Evolutionary Creationism. Their website answers many questions that people have.
John H. Walton's book, The Lost World of Genesis 1 was an eye-opener for me, and finally put the Creation Debate in a context that brought me rest.
Walton maintains that the Genesis creation narrative is focused on functional order rather than physical/material objects.
"In the ancient world, creation stories begin with the default condition of nonorder. This default condition is not bad, corrupt, flawed or damaged but it is undesirable. Then the creator brings order into the world, though not thereby dispelling all nonorder. ... For those who accept evolutionary models, God's actions can be described in every minute step in the evolutionary process. Regardless of the scientific models one accepts, in God, as in Christ, all creation coheres (Col 1:17)". (New Explorations in the Lost World of Genesis, John H. Walton. 2025. p.73-74
Rob
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So we believe that God can do anything except create according to the Biblical model of 6days and the Sabbath?
That’s a very accommodating view of scripture and it’s not good
That’s a very accommodating view of scripture and it’s not good
Which ties into forcing the bible to confirm accepted "scientific facts"
By holding to mn n ot being a unquie creation but evolved from common primate ancestors
Actually, the creation of man in Genesis is a testimony to one of the most unique moments ever as well as personal
The text goes out of its way to make sure that it was very very personal act of God
The text goes out of its way to make sure that it was very very personal act of God
The opening post wondered if Theistic Evolution was a viable biblical option and noted, that he thought it might mean they would be denying a Creator, “or at least that Mankind was a special creation in His own image?”
That tells me that you're a bit mixed up about what constitutes a Creationist.
THE POINT BEING: All creationist theories believe in a Creator.
I’m convinced that you don't understand and can't really define theistic evolutionism.
This ignorance is somewhat understandable, I said in my first post on this thread, “There are many different models of theistic evolution”.
Some forms of theistic evolution even hold a place for the special creation of mankind.
Perhaps you are being mislead by the term, evolution; It is defined in a variety of ways.
The term, “Evolutionary Creationist” has been recently been utilized to emphasize the importance of a Creator.
Simply stated Evolutionary Creationism proposes that God used an evolutionary process in in the process of developing his creation. The fact that we do not totally understand HOW the evolutionary process works isn't important…although it is something we can continue to research.
There are plenty of books on the debates. A few one-volume Systematic Theology Texts mention the wide variety of opinions about the topic.
Here are a few of the books on my shelf at home. I’d be willing to lend them out if you’re interested.
William H. Baker. In The Image of God; a Biblical View of Humanity. Moody Press, 1991
Fazale Rana & Hugh Ross. Who was Adam?; A Creation Model Approach to the Origin of Man. NavPress. 2005.
Peter Enns. The Evolution of Adam; What the Bible Does and Doesn’t say about Human Origins. BrazosPress. 2012.
C. John Collins. Did Adam And Eve Really Exist?, Who They Were and Why You Should Care. Crossways. 2012.
Ron Cole-Turner. The End of Adam and Eve; Theology & the Science of Human Origins.TheologyPlus Publishing. 2016.
S. Joshua Swamidass. The Genealogical Adam & Eve; The Surprising Science of Universal Ancestry. IVP Academic. 2019.
J.B. Stump & Chad Meister, ed. Original SIn and The Fall, Five Views. Spectrum Multiview Books. 2020.
Jeffrey J. Niehaus. When Did Eve Sin?; The Fall & Biblical Historiography. Lexham Press. 2020.
Rob
That tells me that you're a bit mixed up about what constitutes a Creationist.
THE POINT BEING: All creationist theories believe in a Creator.
I’m convinced that you don't understand and can't really define theistic evolutionism.
This ignorance is somewhat understandable, I said in my first post on this thread, “There are many different models of theistic evolution”.
Some forms of theistic evolution even hold a place for the special creation of mankind.
Perhaps you are being mislead by the term, evolution; It is defined in a variety of ways.
The term, “Evolutionary Creationist” has been recently been utilized to emphasize the importance of a Creator.
Simply stated Evolutionary Creationism proposes that God used an evolutionary process in in the process of developing his creation. The fact that we do not totally understand HOW the evolutionary process works isn't important…although it is something we can continue to research.
There are plenty of books on the debates. A few one-volume Systematic Theology Texts mention the wide variety of opinions about the topic.
Here are a few of the books on my shelf at home. I’d be willing to lend them out if you’re interested.
William H. Baker. In The Image of God; a Biblical View of Humanity. Moody Press, 1991
Fazale Rana & Hugh Ross. Who was Adam?; A Creation Model Approach to the Origin of Man. NavPress. 2005.
Peter Enns. The Evolution of Adam; What the Bible Does and Doesn’t say about Human Origins. BrazosPress. 2012.
C. John Collins. Did Adam And Eve Really Exist?, Who They Were and Why You Should Care. Crossways. 2012.
Ron Cole-Turner. The End of Adam and Eve; Theology & the Science of Human Origins.TheologyPlus Publishing. 2016.
S. Joshua Swamidass. The Genealogical Adam & Eve; The Surprising Science of Universal Ancestry. IVP Academic. 2019.
J.B. Stump & Chad Meister, ed. Original SIn and The Fall, Five Views. Spectrum Multiview Books. 2020.
Jeffrey J. Niehaus. When Did Eve Sin?; The Fall & Biblical Historiography. Lexham Press. 2020.
Rob
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
Should Christians Hold to any form of Theistic Evolution then?
Only if they want to burn in hell![Just kidding.]
I find that "Evolution" and "Creationism" is a subject that produces infinitely more heat than light.
Evolution has the better "logical argument" and the "Bible" has the better track record for getting "TRUTH" correct, so I (personally) avoid discussing the subject.
Carry on without me.
Has anyone speculated, using his imagination, at what point in any Theistic Evolution theory did God examine His evolutionary process and decide that what He observed was His image and called it good enough to be man?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
"Should Christians Hold to any form of Theistic Evolution then?"
Why would they not actually believe in Who they professed, and believe His every word?
Why would they trust in men ( when He says for them not to place that trust in fallible men ), and not trust Him implicitly?
Mankind's science is already biased against Him, and there are biblical proofs that are continually being downplayed and suppressed.
Yet, we know from the Bible many things, some of them that even outright contradict modern science.
I'll trust God...
We as men are not trustworthy.