Holding KJVO Only position continued

Eternally Grateful · Tuesday at 8:20 AM

wanted to continue my conversation with @Ben1445 concerning the English vs the Greek.

@Ben1445 made this comment I would like to respond to. and look deeper into. to try to show what I am trying to show

Ben said - That is the problem of people not knowing their own language. It doesn’t mean that the perfect tense doesn’t exist.
If I say “I had eaten,” it means in the past I ate but it leaves opportunity for me to be hungry.

“Are you hungry?” “I had eaten, but I am hungry again.”

My response. this would be in the greek a past tense. or Aorist tense word. Not perfect. That is what seperates a greek from english. the fact you may be hungry now shows that although you ate (in the past) it it does not show whether the action still persists today.

If I answer “I have eaten,” I would not expect to be fed. The present perfect tense shows that what was done in the past is relative to the present.
“I will have eaten,” shows the future perfect.
These convey clearly different meanings than the statements made without the perfect tense.
I ate.
I eat.
I will eat.

Again it is different.

In the greek. we know from the word that what happened in the past. is still in process today. we would not have to ask if you are hungry now because I would already know.

lets look at the example I gave in eph 2; "have been saved"

In context of what we are discussing, I wanted to make sure we are discussing the same context. ie. I am not talking about perfect tense phrases. but words (remember the KJV is a word for word translation. meaning they try their best to pick a word in English that properly translated the word originally written in the Greek

The example I used was in eph 2, the word being saved.

in my English classes. I was always taught there are three tenses

I have been saved (past tense)
I am being saved (present tense)
And I will be saved (future tense).

focusing on the past tense. There is nothing in text which would show the reader we continue to be saved today. it is open for interpretation.

In the greek. this would be a past or aorist word.

I have been saved..

The perfect tense in the Greek is more of a present perfect or a past act with continuing results.

sadly. in the english, we would interpret it the same way. I have been saved.

however, it still leaves open the unanswered question. am I still saved today? will I still be saved tomorrow?

In the greek, this is answered in the word used.

If it is just past tense or aorist simple.. we are unsure or can not know the present state

if it is however. in the perfect tense, we know He not only was saved (a completed action) but his salvation continues

as you see. a word for word translation leaves us with issues. In order to accurately interpret the perfect tense word "saved - Sozo" we would have to ADD or expand the translation. so the reader knows.

a few examples would be...

ie. I have been saved, and this salvation is continuing
Or I have been saved. and this salvation will continue
Or I have been saved and this salvation is complete to the point I will never need saved again.

as you can see. we now get into much debate on how we should interpret this expanded phrase.

for those of us who have sat through a teaching or study with a person who really gets into the original languages, you probably have seen this where the pastor-teacher (thats what mine called himself) would give an updated or more accurate translation of what is said.

I have the Wuest word studies in the Greek new testament, in this series he actually has his own expanded translation. This is how he interprets eph 2: 8

by grace have you been saved completely in past time, with the present result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time (Ephesians 2:8, WUESTNT)

The words in bold had to be added to properly display the perfect tense of the verb SOZO (be saved or rescued) as the words "have been saved" alone could not completely or properly interpret the text

the problem is, people would scream because it is not a word for word interpretation. (I have been in these arguments)

which is why I have said and always maintained. any english word for word text is flawed, because of the weakness of the greek language

Ben1445 · Tuesday at 9:02 PM

Eternally Grateful said:
wanted to continue my conversation with @Ben1445 concerning the English vs the Greek.

@Ben1445 made this comment I would like to respond to. and look deeper into. to try to show what I am trying to show

Ben said - That is the problem of people not knowing their own language. It doesn’t mean that the perfect tense doesn’t exist.
If I say “I had eaten,” it means in the past I ate but it leaves opportunity for me to be hungry.

“Are you hungry?” “I had eaten, but I am hungry again.”

My response. this would be in the greek a past tense. or Aorist tense word. Not perfect. That is what seperates a greek from english. the fact you may be hungry now shows that although you ate (in the past) it it does not show whether the action still persists today.

We are not translating from English to Greek. I wrote it in English. It doesn’t matter what it says in Greek because the intent was for the English reader. If I translate it into Greek, then you can dissect the Greek language.

Eternally Grateful said:
If I answer “I have eaten,” I would not expect to be fed. The present perfect tense shows that what was done in the past is relative to the present.
“I will have eaten,” shows the future perfect.
These convey clearly different meanings than the statements made without the perfect tense.
I ate.
I eat.
I will eat.

Again it is different.

In the greek. we know from the word that what happened in the past. is still in process today. we would not have to ask if you are hungry now because I would already know.

Context has plenty to do with it.
I will need to eat again. I should have said get water. Then maybe you could understand that a drink from the water of life means you won’t thirst again.
You might say “are you certified?”
Well, certifications expire. Just not as fast as dinner.
Let me ask you, “Have you graduated from highs school?”
You would think me silly if I asked you if are still graduated.

If you tell someone that you have eaten, would you expect to be fed?

Eternally Grateful said:
lets look at the example I gave in eph 2; "have been saved"

What do you believe about salvation?
Once saved always saved?
John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Eternally Grateful said:
In context of what we are discussing, I wanted to make sure we are discussing the same context. ie. I am not talking about perfect tense phrases. but words (remember the KJV is a word for word translation. meaning they try their best to pick a word in English that properly translated the word originally written in the Greek

If it is a word for word, why the italics?
When translating, it doesn’t matter that it be Greek, if it is still Greek, it hasn’t been translated. If you want to read the tense in one word, then read the Greek. If God wanted perfect tense in a word, he could have made it that way at Babel.

Eternally Grateful said:
The example I used was in eph 2, the word being saved.

in my English classes. I was always taught there are three tenses

I have been saved (past tense)

That is present perfect.
Past tense would be “I was saved.”
Past perfect, “I had been saved.”

Eternally Grateful said:
I am being saved (present tense)

Being + past participle

Being can be followed by a past participle. This structure is used in the passive forms of present and past continuous tenses.

Compare:

Mother is cooking dinner. (Active)

Dinner is being cooked by mother. (Passive)

They are repairing the roof.

The roof is being repaired.

I am quite sure that somebody is following me. (Active)

I am quite sure that I am being followed. (Passive)

Eternally Grateful said:
And I will be saved (future tense).

focusing on the past tense. There is nothing in text which would show the reader we continue to be saved today. it is open for interpretation.

Do you believe Jesus when He said if you take living water from Him that you will never thirst again?
Do you have eternal assurance?

Eternally Grateful said:
In the greek. this would be a past or aorist word.

We are considering the English. It is not an illegitimate translation based solely on the fact that it takes more than one word to have a perfect tense. If you want to know the perfect tense, you have to know your language.
There is also the possibility that the writer might not know the English language. I don’t think that the translators of the KJV had trouble knowing the English language.

Eternally Grateful said:
I have been saved..

This is a clear statement to me and from what I am hearing from you, a good translation. It just seems to me that you don’t like to use more than one word. My best suggestion would be move to Greece.

Eternally Grateful said:
The perfect tense in the Greek is more of a present perfect or a past act with continuing results.

sadly. in the english, we would interpret it the same way. I have been saved.

They might nowadays. Not many people know their language. One more reason to use the KJV. The modern translators use a subjective interpretation of the English language.

Eternally Grateful said:
however, it still leaves open the unanswered question. am I still saved today? will I still be saved tomorrow?

To you have assurance of salvation from the Lord?

Eternally Grateful said:
In the greek, this is answered in the word used.

It is answered well enough in the KJV.

Eternally Grateful said:
If it is just past tense or aorist simple.. we are unsure or can not know the present state

if it is however. in the perfect tense, we know He not only was saved (a completed action) but his salvation continues

as you see. a word for word translation leaves us with issues. In order to accurately interpret the perfect tense word "saved - Sozo" we would have to ADD or expand the translation. so the reader knows.

Since the translators added words as is clearly evident from the italics used the readers benefit, it is not exactly word for word.
I have, as long as I can remember, always understood the word saved as a permanent thing. When we are in the hand of the Father, there is none that can remove us.

Eternally Grateful said:
a few examples would be...

ie. I have been saved, and this salvation is continuing
Or I have been saved. and this salvation will continue
Or I have been saved and this salvation is complete to the point I will never need saved again.

Or preach John 4 and get a good understanding of the effects of salvation.

Ben1445 · Tuesday at 9:02 PM

Eternally Grateful said:
as you can see. we now get into much debate on how we should interpret this expanded phrase.

I don’t think it’s necessary to debate. As I have said, we have a translation that explains the permanence of salvation.

Eternally Grateful said:
for those of us who have sat through a teaching or study with a person who really gets into the original languages, you probably have seen this where the pastor-teacher (thats what mine called himself) would give an updated or more accurate translation of what is said.

He, or you, may call it updated or more accurate. If you give a synonym or use more than one word to give the same meaning or try to help give understanding, it is not automatically better.

Nehemiah 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

They didn’t retranslate the Jewish Text. They explained it. They have kept the original version without updates and better words. Any differences are copyist errors.
I suppose you could say vowel markings, but there is not much comparison there since we have vowels.

Eternally Grateful said:
I have the Wuest word studies in the Greek new testament, in this series he actually has his own expanded translation. This is how he interprets eph 2: 8

by grace have you been saved completely in past time, with the present result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time (Ephesians 2:8, WUESTNT)

It is not necessary. I am not going out to buy his translation. One man shows have no checks and balances to weed out their own preferences and bias.

Eternally Grateful said:
The words in bold had to be added to properly display the perfect tense of the verb SOZO (be saved or rescued) as the words "have been saved" alone could not completely or properly interpret the text

As I have already stated, the bold words are not necessary if you use the English language properly.

Eternally Grateful said:
the problem is, people would scream because it is not a word for word interpretation. (I have been in these arguments)

which is why I have said and always maintained. any english word for word text is flawed, because of the weakness of the greek language

But the KJV is not actually a word for word text because there are many words that were added for clarity and coherence.

Eternally Grateful · Wednesday at 10:10 AM

Ben1445 said:
We are not translating from English to Greek.
I wrote it in English. It doesn’t matter what it says in Greek because the intent was for the English reader. If I translate it into Greek, then you can dissect the Greek language.

Never said we were. our discussing is translating a perfect tense noun (saved) in the Greek. to English using a word for word interpretation. so I am not sure why you even make this statement.

Ben1445 said:
Context has plenty to do with it.
I will need to eat again. I should have said get water. Then maybe you could understand that a drink from the water of life means you won’t thirst again.

Jesus said in john 6. if I eat the bread from heaven, I will never have to eat again. He called it the food which endures forever.

Ben1445 said:
You might say “are you certified?”
Well, certifications expire. Just not as fast as dinner.

Then certified would be in the greek in the aorist or past tense. not perfect.

Ben1445 said:
Let me ask you, “Have you graduated from highs school?”
You would think me silly if I asked you if are still graduated.

are you going to actually respond to anything I have said? Or keep going off topic?

Ben1445 said:
If you tell someone that you have eaten, would you expect to be fed?

again, has no bearing on our conversation we are discussing greek words. and translating them to english

Ben1445 said:
What do you believe about salvation?
Once saved always saved?
John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

If it is a word for word, why the italics?
When translating, it doesn’t matter that it be Greek, if it is still Greek, it hasn’t been translated. If you want to read the tense in one word, then read the Greek. If God wanted perfect tense in a word, he could have made it that way at Babel.

That is present perfect.
Past tense would be “I was saved.”
Past perfect, “I had been saved.”

or perfect. I was saved, and I continue to be saved.

Ben1445 said:
Being + past participle
Being can be followed by a past participle. This structure is used in the passive forms of present and past continuous tenses.

Compare:

Mother is cooking dinner. (Active)

Dinner is being cooked by mother. (Passive)

They are repairing the roof.

The roof is being repaired.

I am quite sure that somebody is following me. (Active)

I am quite sure that I am being followed. (Passive)

Do you believe Jesus when He said if you take living water from Him that you will never thirst again?
Do you have eternal assurance?

We are considering the English. It is not an illegitimate translation based solely on the fact that it takes more than one word to have a perfect tense. If you want to know the perfect tense, you have to know your language.
There is also the possibility that the writer might not know the English language. I don’t think that the translators of the KJV had trouble knowing the English language.

This is a clear statement to me and from what I am hearing from you, a good translation. It just seems to me that you don’t like to use more than one word. My best suggestion would be move to Greece.

They might nowadays. Not many people know their language. One more reason to use the KJV. The modern translators use a subjective interpretation of the English language.

To you have assurance of salvation from the Lord?

It is answered well enough in the KJV.

Since the translators added words as is clearly evident from the italics used the readers benefit, it is not exactly word for word.
I have, as long as I can remember, always understood the word saved as a permanent thing. When we are in the hand of the Father, there is none that can remove us.

Or preach John 4 and get a good understanding of the effects of salvation.

ok, You seem to have lost my point.

can you please stick to the topic. and actually respond to what I said.

Y9ou sound like your trying to prove you point. But you are not discussing the point I made.

Eternally Grateful · Wednesday at 10:13 AM

Ben1445 said:
I don’t think it’s necessary to debate. As I have said, we have a translation that explains the permanence of salvation.

No we do not

It says we have been saved

Nothing in the english text shows us that that salvation is still in effect. or if it will continue to be in effect.

Ben1445 said:
He, or you, may call it updated or more accurate. If you give a synonym or use more than one word to give the same meaning or try to help give understanding, it is not automatically better.

Nehemiah 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

They didn’t retranslate the Jewish Text. They explained it. They have kept the original version without updates and better words. Any differences are copyist errors.
I suppose you could say vowel markings, but there is not much comparison there since we have vowels.

It is not necessary. I am not going out to buy his translation. One man shows have no checks and balances to weed out their own preferences and bias.

As I have already stated, the bold words are not necessary if you use the English language properly.

But the KJV is not actually a word for word text because there are many words that were added for clarity and coherence.

again, You have failed to prove your point

For it is by grace we have been saved. or even using the KJV for by grace are ye saved (who talks this way today anyway)

neither interpretation lets the reader know if their still saved. or if they will continue to be saved.

in both cases. we have a flawed interpretation

Ben1445 · Wednesday at 2:45 PM

Eternally Grateful said:
No we do not

You have not read what Jesus said about salvation. I have mentioned it and it is not good enough for you.

You are flat out wrong. The English language has a perfect tense. We just don’t have something to perfectly fit your preferences.

You have ignored the rest of the translation because you say it is a word for word translation. There are plenty of words added in that were not in the Greek.
You are upset about the language you use because you like the Greek better.
God made language, take your complaints to Him.
There is sufficient ability in the English language to show perfect tense. If your requirement is that it be written in the perfect tense in one word, then you are not going to be satisfied.
If you don’t think we have a perfect translation anywhere, you don’t believe in the preservation of God’s Word. If you

Eternally Grateful said:
It says we have been saved

Nothing in the english text shows us that that salvation is still in effect. or if it will continue to be in effect.

“Never thirst again.”
This is in the English text. If you don’t want to believe it, you will have a hard time understanding the extent of salvation.
If you don’t want to believe that “have been” is present perfect, you will continue to be dissatisfied.

Eternally Grateful said:
again, You have failed to prove your point

To you, who have already decided what my answer should be, I will not be able to convince you that there is a perfect tense in the English.

Eternally Grateful said:
For it is by grace we have been saved. or even using the KJV for by grace are ye saved (who talks this way today anyway)

neither interpretation lets the reader know if their still saved. or if they will continue to be saved.

in both cases. we have a flawed interpretation

Only because you don’t know English.
The fact that you can’t accept that there are words added to the KJV is ridiculous. Most people just want something to complain about. You found your thing. You may keep it. Just know that when you say that there is no perfect tense in the English language you are wrong. The other explanation that you failed to understand has to do with the participle you used incorrectly to try to show your tenses. In short, don’t attempt any translation efforts without a professional grammar expert that you will listen to.

Eternally Grateful · Wednesday at 3:00 PM

Ben1445 said:
You have not read what Jesus said about salvation. I have mentioned it and it is not good enough for you.

I do not think you comprehend the argument

My argument is about a particular interpretation of a particular phrase.

the rest of anything Jesus said or the rest of the bible does not matter

was that particular verse correctly interpreted into english

Ben1445 said:
You are flat out wrong. The English language has a perfect tense. We just don’t have something to perfectly fit your preferences.

The so called enlgish perfect tnese is not the same as the greek perfect tense. As I have proven.

Again, I proved my point, and you seem to not even want to discuss that point and the verse in question

Ben1445 said:
You have ignored the rest of the translation because you say it is a word for word translation. There are plenty of words added in that were not in the Greek.
You are upset about the language you use because you like the Greek better.

lol. Ok man, you need to slow down.. I am not upset about any language, I am just trying to share the difficulties and flaws in a language.

It has no bearing on wether I like one better than the other.

Ben1445 said:
God made language, take your complaints to Him.

Actually all languages today are not like those God created at Babylon. Even our own language has changed..

Ben1445 said:
There is sufficient ability in the English language to show perfect tense. If your requirement is that it be written in the perfect tense in one word, then you are not going to be satisfied.

then prove it

For by grace ye are saved

For by grace we have been saved

in eiter translation. Is the perfect tense used. Someone reading these verses and knowing nothing about the rest of the bible. can they by this translation know if this salvation is still in effect. or will remain in effect

is there a reason you do no want to look at this one example I am using..

You seem to be discussing how we can use all bibles and come to the same conclusion. but that is NOT what I am discussing

Ben1445 said:
If you don’t think we have a perfect translation anywhere, you don’t believe in the preservation of God’s Word.

Here we go.

all I can do is shake my head. a typical king james only argument that God did not preserve his word.

so your telling me God did not preserve his word from the time John wrote his last words until the KJV was created some 1600 years later?

If this is your only argument, it fails

Ben1445 said:
Only because you don’t know English.

I know english quite well my friend.

Once again

For by grace ye are saved

For by grace we have been saved

in either translation. Is the perfect tense used. Someone reading these verses and knowing nothing about the rest of the bible. can they by this translation know if this salvation is still in effect. or will remain in effect

Ben1445 said:
The fact that you can’t accept that there are words added to the KJV is ridiculous.

lol. Its ridiculous that you are tryign to use this as an argument, when i even said. HAVE BEEN SAVED (the words have been were added)

AREYE saved.. the words are ye are added.

please pay attention

Ben1445 said:
Most people just want something to complain about. You found your thing. You may keep it. Just know that when you say that there is no perfect tense in the English language you are wrong. The other explanation that you failed to understand has to do with the participle you used incorrectly to try to show your tenses. In short, don’t attempt any translation efforts without a professional grammar expert that you will listen to.

yawn

its obvious all you want to do is worship a translation.. I thought you really wanted to actually discuss this but it is obvious you do not

Ben1445 · Wednesday at 4:06 PM

Eternally Grateful said:
I do not think you comprehend the argument

I have been answering you. But we apparently read the English language differently.

Eternally Grateful said:
My argument is about a particular interpretation of a particular phrase.

No other examples are acceptable to use. I understand that.

Eternally Grateful said:
the rest of anything Jesus said or the rest of the bible does not matter

It should. It gives context and understanding.

Eternally Grateful said:
was that particular verse correctly interpreted into english

I think so. You think that it should say something in a word where several are used to make the same meaning in translation.

Eternally Grateful said:
The so called enlgish perfect tnese is not the same as the greek perfect tense. As I have proven.

They are different languages. They have different structures. They are different. That doesn’t mean that they cannot translate.

Eternally Grateful said:
Again, I proved my point, and you seem to not even want to discuss that point and the verse in question

If you can’t apply the grammar lesson to the verse, you haven’t learned the grammar.

Eternally Grateful said:
lol. Ok man, you need to slow down.. I am not upset about any language, I am just trying to share the difficulties and flaws in a language.

You don’t understand the language. That is the first major flaw.

Eternally Grateful said:
It has no bearing on whether I like one better than the other.

Actually all languages today are not like those God created at Babylon. Even our own language has changed..

Not enough to say that it is incomprehensible.
There are still people who understand it, by reason of their use.

Eternally Grateful said:
then prove it

Start here with the grammar lesson.

Eternally Grateful said:
For by grace ye are saved

If you can say of someone, “ye are saved,” that is pretty clear that they are still saved. They are saved. Are they? Yes. Are they still? Yes. If they were not, you should not say they are.

Eternally Grateful said:
For by grace we have been saved

Again, have been is present perfect in the English language.
If it said had been, then it would indicate that the action had ended in the past. Because have is used instead of had, it is an ongoing effect.

Eternally Grateful said:
in eiter translation. Is the perfect tense used.

Yes. I have explained it several times already. I have cited multiple grammar sources.
You have cited your own grammar intelligence. Show me a respectable source that says that in English, have been does not show perfect tense.

Eternally Grateful said:
Someone reading these verses and knowing nothing about the rest of the bible. can they by this translation know if this salvation is still in effect. or will remain in effect

Yes.

Eternally Grateful said:
is there a reason you do no want to look at this one example I am using..

To see if you actually understand the grammar. Now I have answered the one example. Although the words, “have been” have been in every explanation that I have given, I explained it in these sentences that you have asked.

Eternally Grateful said:
You seem to be discussing how we can use all bibles and come to the same conclusion. but that is NOT what I am discussing

I have been talking about the English language. You seem to take out of what I say, anything you want and leave the rest.

Eternally Grateful said:
Here we go.

all I can do is shake my head. a typical king james only argument that God did not preserve his word.

It is not a KJVO argument. You don’t think it is important that you be able to trust the Word of God? If it is not God’s Word, why are you using it?

Eternally Grateful said:
so your telling me God did not preserve his word from the time John wrote his last words until the KJV was created some 1600 years later?

I didn’t say that. I ask people all the time how anyone was able to know God before 1611. You don’t believe God preserves His Word in spite of translations? You think that everyone has to learn Greek?

Eternally Grateful said:
If this is your only argument, it fails

If you don’t have the Word of God, what are you doing? Why do you quote verses to people and expect anything? Why not just use Tom Sawyer and expect the same result?

Eternally Grateful said:
I know english quite well my friend.

Evidently not.

Eternally Grateful said:
Once again

For by grace ye are saved

For by grace we have been saved

See above. I won’t type it all out again.

Eternally Grateful said:
in either translation. Is the perfect tense used.

Yes.

Eternally Grateful said:
Someone reading these verses and knowing nothing about the rest of the bible. can they by this translation know if this salvation is still in effect. or will remain in effect

Yes.

Eternally Grateful said:
lol. It’s ridiculous that you are tryign to use this as an argument, when i even said. HAVE BEEN SAVED (the words have been were added)

To make it a perfect tense. I don’t know why you can’t see that it takes three English words to make the one in Greek. It is an acceptable perfect tense.

Eternally Grateful said:
AREYE saved.. the words are ye are added.

So in the translation, words were added to make a perfect tense. If you don’t read them as perfect tense, you don’t know English, no matter how much you think you do.

Eternally Grateful said:
please pay attention

You have not been.

Eternally Grateful said:
yawn

No wonder you have done so poorly. You are sleeping in class.

Eternally Grateful said:
its obvious all you want to do is worship a translation.. I thought you really wanted to actually discuss this but it is obvious you do not

You have made assumptions about me that are incorrect. You have determined that anyone who can’t come to your understanding is incorrect and KJVO.

I just can’t get past the idea that you don’t think that the English language has a perfect tense. If you won’t learn the perfect tense in English, don’t expect to recognize it when it is shown to you. And don’t expect it to conform to the grammar of another language.

Eternally Grateful · Thursday at 6:44 AM

Ben1445 said:
I have been answering you. But we apparently read the English language differently.

No other examples are acceptable to use. I understand that.

Your using english examples.

I am using a greek text interpreted into english.

I would ask you please stick to my argument. otherwise. we have no bearing for the root of my conversation in which you are trying to show I am in error

Ben1445 said:
It should. It gives context and understanding.

But a perfect tense words does not need context. It shows it is a completed action which continues to apply. As apposed to a past (have been saved) or present (ye are saved) word.

Ben1445 said:
I think so. You think that it should say something in a word where several are used to make the same meaning in translation.

But in neither translation was it interpreted in a way that the true nature of the word was originally written.

Ben1445 said:
They are different languages. They have different structures. They are different. That doesn’t mean that they cannot translate.

Yes they are different.. And they did not translate.. I have yet to find one translation which has it completely correct when it comes to eph 2: 8

Ben1445 said:
If you can’t apply the grammar lesson to the verse, you haven’t learned the grammar.

I have been applying the language lesson to the verse.

Ben1445 said:
You don’t understand the language. That is the first major flaw.

You did not slow down. and you are making an accusation in which you have no basis.

Ben1445 said:
Not enough to say that it is incomprehensible.
There are still people who understand it, by reason of their use.

then explain it

By grace are ye saved

For it is by grace you have been saved.

does this in writing show our future salvation is assured because it is a completed act. or is there any possibility of doubt, using these words alone? (My premis is in the greek. there is no doubt)

Ben1445 said:
Start here with the grammar lesson.

If you can say of someone, “ye are saved,” that is pretty clear that they are still saved. They are saved. Are they? Yes. Are they still? Yes. If they were not, you should not say they are.

Yes, right now I am saved. does this mean I will continue to be saved? Does it show this in the text?

Ben1445 said:
Again, have been is present perfect in the English language.
If it said had been, then it would indicate that the action had ended in the past. Because have is used instead of had, it is an ongoing effect.

Yes. I have explained it several times already. I have cited multiple grammar sources.
You have cited your own grammar intelligence. Show me a respectable source that says that in English, have been does not show perfect tense.

Yes.

To see if you actually understand the grammar. Now I have answered the one example. Although the words, “have been” have been in every explanation that I have given, I explained it in these sentences that you have asked.

I have been talking about the English language. You seem to take out of what I say, anything you want and leave the rest.

It is not a KJVO argument. You don’t think it is important that you be able to trust the Word of God? If it is not God’s Word, why are you using it?

I didn’t say that. I ask people all the time how anyone was able to know God before 1611. You don’t believe God preserves His Word in spite of translations? You think that everyone has to learn Greek?

If you don’t have the Word of God, what are you doing? Why do you quote verses to people and expect anything? Why not just use Tom Sawyer and expect the same result?

Evidently not.

See above. I won’t type it all out again.

Yes.

Yes.

To make it a perfect tense. I don’t know why you can’t see that it takes three English words to make the one in Greek. It is an acceptable perfect tense.

So in the translation, words were added to make a perfect tense. If you don’t read them as perfect tense, you don’t know English, no matter how much you think you do.

You have not been.

No wonder you have done so poorly. You are sleeping in class.

You have made assumptions about me that are incorrect. You have determined that anyone who can’t come to your understanding is incorrect and KJVO.

I just can’t get past the idea that you don’t think that the English language has a perfect tense. If you won’t learn the perfect tense in English, don’t expect to recognize it when it is shown to you. And don’t expect it to conform to the grammar of another language.

lol.

Ok I can see we will go no further. Again, there is no need.

People read "ye are saved' and still say salvation can be lost or can still be in question (we can not know) .. so sadly. those three words are not "set in stone" as perfect tense as the greek would have it.

Anyway, I will move on.. As I have said many times, I would never give a new believer today a KJV Bible. because it would be unreadable to them. because the language is not the same

and even if I give them a more modern bible. I would suggest they study deeply.. Again, using Jesus conversation with peter. The greek gives us a much clearer understanding of the conversation, which can not be found in the English language text. Not that they can not see what Jesus did, and get the context of Jesus restoring Peter. But it is far more clear how Jesus forgave peter. even though Peter at the time could not say He AGAPE loved Jesus.

Ben1445 · Thursday at 8:52 AM

Eternally Grateful said:
Your using english examples.

Because we are talking about the English language. The only reason I replied to you in the last thread is because you said that the English language has no perfect tense. I would not have bothered to say anything except for that. Grammar is the only thing I have been talking about.

Eternally Grateful said:
I am using a greek text interpreted into english.

Unless you are using a version that comes from English, so are most of us. It is not common for people to still use Latin to English texts.
I fail to see the significance of this statement to the conversation.

Eternally Grateful said:
I would ask you please stick to my argument. otherwise. we have no bearing for the root of my conversation in which you are trying to show I am in error

By stick to your argument, you mean say that the English has no perfect tense.
That is your argument. It is wrong. I am not sure what you are really getting at. Since the last thread, I have only ever been talking about the English language and perfect tense. I have no disagreement with the Greek. It is a wonderful language. It is nearly irrelevant. The only reason I am hear is because the English language has a perfect tense. If it is not good enough for the translators to use three words instead of one, read the Greek. If you don’t want to read other Scripture for context, don’t. You may continue to conclude that everyone who knows nothing about Scripture will read it just like you.

Eternally Grateful said:
But a perfect tense words does not need context. It shows it is a completed action which continues to apply. As apposed to a past (have been saved) or present (ye are saved) word.

In English, we use three words instead of one. It is amazing sometimes how different, different languages can be.
You continue to show your ignorance. Have been is present perfect. Has been is present perfect. Had been is past perfect.

Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained With Examples (PDF)

Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained with Examples (PDF)
Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained with Examples (PDF)
Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained with Examples (PDF)
Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained with Examples (PDF)
If you’ve been wondering about the difference between “had been,” “has been,” and “have been”, this guide simplifies their usage with clear explanations and examples. At the end of the article, you’ll also find a mini quiz and downloadable PDF exercises.
Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained with Examples (PDF)

Quick Overview

I didn’t write it. You can just google “have been grammar tense” and find out how wrong you are.
Clearly, You are not one to admit that you are wrong, though.

Eternally Grateful said:
But in neither translation was it interpreted in a way that the true nature of the word was originally written.

You don’t think so because your grammar is awful.

Eternally Grateful said:
Yes they are different.. And they did not translate.. I have yet to find one translation which has it completely correct when it comes to eph 2: 8

They did translate but into the English language and not your language.

Eternally Grateful said:
I have been applying the language lesson to the verse.

You didn’t pick it up. You continue to call have been past tense when it is present perfect.

Eternally Grateful said:
You did not slow down. and you are making an accusation in which you have no basis.

It has basis. I keep reading your poor grammar that you pride yourself in. You continue to call a present perfect, past tense. It shows that you don’t know the language. Run down to the closest university, ask for the English professor and ask him what tense have been is. If he has any integrity in the language and is not a DEI professor, he will tell you the same thing that I am telling you.

Eternally Grateful said:
then explain it

I did. You laughed. It emphasized your ignorance.

Eternally Grateful said:
By grace are ye saved

For it is by grace you have been saved.

I have explained it. It will do nothing for me to explain again if you don’t understand the English language.

Eternally Grateful said:
does this in writing show our future salvation is assured because it is a completed act.

Yes.

Eternally Grateful said:
or is there any possibility of doubt, using these words alone?

You could continue to doubt anything. Some people don’t accept plain English. Some don’t accept it even with multiple explanations. A Calvinist might even say that they were not elected to understand.
Why is it important to you to throw out the rest of the Bible and use these words alone? Obviously these words alone are not enough to satisfy you, in spite of their ability to satisfy others. In that case, I recommend using the rest of the Bible as well.

Eternally Grateful said:
(My premis is in the greek. there is no doubt)

The Greek is wonderful. Your problem is in the English.

Eternally Grateful said:
Yes, right now I am saved. does this mean I will continue to be saved? Does it show this in the text?

It does me. I paid attention in English class. You don’t use the same grammar rules as everyone else, apparently.

Eternally Grateful said:
lol.

Ok I can see we will go no further. Again, there is no need.

You do need to go further. Your grammar is lacking. You talk a big game about languages but you don’t know your own.

Eternally Grateful said:
People read "ye are saved' and still say salvation can be lost or can still be in question (we can not know) .. so sadly. those three words are not "set in stone" as perfect tense as the greek would have it.

People read that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and sadly, they don’t believe that either.
But in the Calvinist mind, there is no option to believe. In the free will mind, there is the ability to not believe what is right in front of you.

Eternally Grateful said:
Anyway, I will move on.. As I have said many times, I would never give a new believer today a KJV Bible. because it would be unreadable to them. because the language is not the same

You are the self proclaimed expert.
It sounds like you don’t think that the Holy Spirit is able to help someone understand the KJV. You think that the Holy Spirit should stick to the original languages?
In my opinion, it’s more difficult to understand the more modern texts because they lose so much meaning. (Just in my experience)

Eternally Grateful said:
and even if I give them a more modern bible. I would suggest they study deeply..

no matter what Bible, I suggest it.

Eternally Grateful said:
Again, using Jesus conversation with peter. The greek gives us a much clearer understanding of the conversation, which can not be found in the English language text.

Glad to hear that Greek is a more familiar language to you.

Eternally Grateful said:
Not that they can not see what Jesus did, and get the context of Jesus restoring Peter. But it is far more clear how Jesus forgave peter. even though Peter at the time could not say He AGAPE loved Jesus.

At some point, you have to be satisfied with the language you have and use it correctly. Everything necessary for salvation is in the English.

James 1:5
-- If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Eternally Grateful · Thursday at 9:12 AM

Ben1445 said:
Because we are talking about the English language. The only reason I replied to you in the last thread is because you said that the English language has no perfect tense. I would not have bothered to say anything except for that. Grammar is the only thing I have been talking about.

Unless you are using a version that comes from English, so are most of us. It is not common for people to still use Latin to English texts.
I fail to see the significance of this statement to the conversation.

By stick to your argument, you mean say that the English has no perfect tense.
That is your argument. It is wrong. I am not sure what you are really getting at. Since the last thread, I have only ever been talking about the English language and perfect tense. I have no disagreement with the Greek. It is a wonderful language. It is nearly irrelevant. The only reason I am hear is because the English language has a perfect tense. If it is not good enough for the translators to use three words instead of one, read the Greek. If you don’t want to read other Scripture for context, don’t. You may continue to conclude that everyone who knows nothing about Scripture will read it just like you.

In English, we use three words instead of one. It is amazing sometimes how different, different languages can be.
You continue to show your ignorance. Have been is present perfect. Has been is present perfect. Had been is past perfect.

Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained With Examples (PDF)
Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained with Examples (PDF)
Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained with Examples (PDF)
Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained with Examples (PDF)
Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained with Examples (PDF)
If you’ve been wondering about the difference between “had been,” “has been,” and “have been”, this guide simplifies their usage with clear explanations and examples. At the end of the article, you’ll also find a mini quiz and downloadable PDF exercises.
Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained with Examples (PDF)

Quick Overview

Had been: Refers to something that started and ended in the past. It’s used in the past perfect tense.

Have been and has been: Describe actions that began in the past and continue into the present, or have just been completed. These are used in the present perfect tense.

I didn’t write it. You can just google “have been grammar tense” and find out how wrong you are.
Clearly, You are not one to admit that you are wrong, though.

You don’t think so because your grammar is awful.

They did translate but into the English language and not your language.

You didn’t pick it up. You continue to call have been past tense when it is present perfect.

It has basis. I keep reading your poor grammar that you pride yourself in. You continue to call a present perfect, past tense. It shows that you don’t know the language. Run down to the closest university, ask for the English professor and ask him what tense have been is. If he has any integrity in the language and is not a DEI professor, he will tell you the same thing that I am telling you.

I did. You laughed. It emphasized your ignorance.

I have explained it. It will do nothing for me to explain again if you don’t understand the English language.

Yes.

You could continue to doubt anything. Some people don’t accept plain English. Some don’t accept it even with multiple explanations. A Calvinist might even say that they were not elected to understand.
Why is it important to you to throw out the rest of the Bible and use these words alone? Obviously these words alone are not enough to satisfy you, in spite of their ability to satisfy others. In that case, I recommend using the rest of the Bible as well.

The Greek is wonderful. Your problem is in the English.

It does me. I paid attention in English class. You don’t use the same grammar rules as everyone else, apparently.

You do need to go further. Your grammar is lacking. You talk a big game about languages but you don’t know your own.

People read that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and sadly, they don’t believe that either.
But in the Calvinist mind, there is no option to believe. In the free will mind, there is the ability to not believe what is right in front of you.

You are the self proclaimed expert.
It sounds like you don’t think that the Holy Spirit is able to help someone understand the KJV. You think that the Holy Spirit should stick to the original languages?
In my opinion, it’s more difficult to understand the more modern texts because they lose so much meaning. (Just in my experience)

no matter what Bible, I suggest it.

Glad to hear that Greek is a more familiar language to you.

At some point, you have to be satisfied with the language you have and use it correctly. Everything necessary for salvation is in the English.

James 1:5
-- If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Like I said there is no need to go further

It has nothing to do with me being satisfied with any language

it has to do with me understanding that languages may have flaws. and I may need to dig deeper if I want a fuller understanding of the word.

The KJV is great. I used it growing up. But for the last 40 years have used the NKJV.

Again, I pulled my mothers KJV out a few years ago (God rest her soul) and I struggled in trying to read it and understand some things.

the argument the HS can help someone understand a language is out there.. Why help them understand when we can just give them a more modern updated version.. Plus.. theologians look up the greek.. Every pastor teacher I have ever met looks up original languages, They even use it in their teachings.

anyway. Moving on..

Ben1445 · Thursday at 8:50 PM

The flaw is not with the language. The language is the set of parameters. If you can’t get it translated, it is the translation that is flawed. It is not the language that is flawed. If I send a letter and the post office continually delivers to the wrong address, it is not because my friend lives in the wrong place.
I have heard that there are some tribes or peoples mostly in remote areas and islands where translation is an extremely difficult task. I don’t agree that English is one of these sorts of languages.

I do believe that the Holy Spirit liberally gives wisdom to those who ask. May God bless us as we dive deeper into His Word.

Holding KJVO Only position continued

Eternally Grateful

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Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained With Examples (PDF)

Quick Overview

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Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained With Examples (PDF)

Quick Overview

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Holding KJVO Only position continued

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Being + past participle ​

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Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained With Examples (PDF)​

Quick Overview​

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Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained With Examples (PDF)​

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Being + past participle

Being + past participle

Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained With Examples (PDF)

Quick Overview

Have Been, Has Been, Had Been – Explained With Examples (PDF)

Quick Overview