God hardened their hearts

Benjamin said

I think a person who sits down to read the Bible without Calvinistic presumption will conclude that man has free will AND that God is sovereign. Working out this knowledge may not be as easy as adopting the philosophy of Men and we may be spoiled by it if not careful What good is there in sin coming into the world from an omniscient God and at what purpose if we don’t have the will to do so? The Calvinist view of Total depravity robs us of ANY free will. If we can’t choose to sin or not, how could it be counted against us

I don't know of a single Calvinist who does not hold that a lost man operates freely according to his own volition, and according to his nature. For all of us, saved or lost, sin is a willful choice. At the same time, the apostle Paul described lost people as "dead in their trespasses and sins." We know what physically dead is like, and Paul draws a spiritual analogy here. Dead people have neither the desire nor the ability to be alive. When Paul addressed the saints he described them as "you He hath quickened (made alive}...." In Acts 16, Luke pointed out that the Lord opened Lydia's heart. Only then did she understand and freely act on Paul's preaching of the gospel.


If we can’t choose to sin or not, how could it be counted against us?

This is similar, but not exactly the same objection Paul anticipated in Romans 9, where he had just quoted God as saying He would have mercy on whoever he wanted to, and would harden whoever He wante to. If we can't resist his will, how can we be held responsible? Paul's reponse was basically, "who do you think you are?" On this board, however, we will be a bit kinder and gentler.

Tom Butler

 

But those of us who believe that we must respond to God's offer of eternal salvation also believe that the Holy Spirit works on those who are thereby convicted of their sin and accept Christ as their Savior. John 3:16 places no qualifications on those who can accept His offer of salvation by grace.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

This is written to the Church at Laodicea which has forsaken their faith but it applies to all of us.

Furthermore, Christ has included a warning for us to be faithful in our Christian life in this passage. Glory is reserved for those that overcome. This means to continue to abide in Christ's love and finish the race. There is no such thing as the Calvinist "Cheap Grace." The Christian life is a difficult one characterized by picking up our cross and following Him. Perseverance of the Saints is a command not a promise.

 

Question, if not free will then why would God say it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heavent he for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. If God irrestably draws certain men then what about this saying of the rich? If all men are dead in sins and cannot choose God then what difference does it make if he is rich or not. According to calvinist it only matters if he is chosen or not. Maybe God is lsaying it is harder to draw the rich ones, eh? LOL

 

I’m new to the C/A debate, didn’t think I’d get involved but just kinda happened when they opened up the gates; I see you said you’ve been lurking for a while so you may or not know the C/A forum was shut down, the few times I lurked in that forum I never heard a Calvinist hold to the truth that man “operates freely according to his own volition” without throwing something in like “and according to his nature” then you add in, “For all of us, saved or lost, sin is a willful choice.” But I seem to find this either double talk to lure an opposition or not full-fledged Calvinism (BTW, I’m glad you finally found the nerve and an easy mark, that’s OK I’ll get over it; welcome!) into the philosophy of limited atonement.

The saints that Paul addressed have already been quickened and as per Psalms addresses …for thy word hath quickened me. Made alive-reborn in the Spirit… “ that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:”

(1Co 15:37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain , it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

(1Co 15:38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Then we’re told about the different types of bodies in detail, flesh and spiritual, the flesh are not all the same “may chance of wheat” yes, “God giveth as it pleased Him” but there is chance by circumstances which I do not believe are set in stone (lets not go in circles about the predestination verses) that a man has a choice either way to come to God or not, by hearing that word and accepting God’s love which I also think He gives in many other ways, Word, circumstances, Love is all around us. God is Love, man fell, and God knows how to separate the good from evil and I think the only logical way this can be done in Truth which God is, by Him giving us free choice.

For the other body (spiritual), Yes, God of course does the quickening also, He made that possible by the free gift of His Son, and freely a man must die to his spirit and be born again in the Holy Spirit, this is the only way to eternal life with Him and this is done in through reciprocation of God’s love which He gives freely and we must return that love freely for it to be love as per example that He gave us.

It is all-powerful God’s prerogative to have mercy on who He will have mercy and He does that through LOVE-ONLY, that is His righteousness. By talking back we might say, “Why have you made me like this?” Well, because God knows our hearts and He wants us to choose between good and evil since we’re so darn smart with all this knowledge we fell into. We asked for it, we got it, Toyota, now use it and CHOOSE wisely “ye little gods” now that our Father, if we “choose” Love, freely given in love has provided a way of salvation to pay for the sins that we’re going to have so we can be perfect and live with Him, it was at a cost, isn’t that a glorious example to follow, (freely give your spirit through love to Him) but for those who choose another father you live by the flesh, keep that spirit of yours and see where that gets you.

I’m all for kindler and gentler, but you gotta keep your dukes up around here.

 

Hello Tom good to meet you.

You have met one now. Me. Once you're well established maybe we can cross swords? God is Sovereign.

john.

 

You have met one now. Me. Once you're well established maybe we can cross swords? God is Sovereign.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]There ya go! Toyota

 

johnp, thanks for your cordial welcome.

I really think we won't have to cross swords. I suspect the problem is semantics, and we really don't disagree. The problem is my inability to clearly and adequately articulate. I totally agree that God is sovereign. I subscribe fully to Nebuchadnezzar's description of God in Daniel 4:35 "..He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand and say to him 'what have you done.'" God's power is not diminished or trumped in any way by human will. God has not purposely limited His sovereignty so humans can have free will. In a later post, I will try to resolve what I have written here with what I wrote earlier to which you took exception. With regard to the Supreme Creator of the universe, I believe we are of one mind. And I owe Benjamin an explanation as well.

Tom Butler

 

Hello Tom.

I didn't take exception Tom but I wanted you to know what I believed because it transcends most Calvinists I've met. All of them I think.

Toyota? Wasn't he the Lone Ranger's sidekick?


john.

 

Hello.

That's where human philosophy gets you Benjamin, who claims He is all loving but those who disagree with God? As it is written: Jacob I loved Esau I hated.
MAL 1:4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, `Great is the LORD--even beyond the borders of Israel!'

All loving is incaplable of Hell. Love never fails... Praise the Lord.

And of course anyone so unbiased would neglect to believe in predestination, although it is clearly stated in the scripture, and believe in free will, which is not mentioned at all and contradicts predestination. How do you do that? Beats me. God came to Abraham the father of the faith. Are you greater than him?

For God to be Sovereign at the same time another person can decide his fate is false and contradictory. Sovereignty resides in choice so if a man could decide his own fate God would not be sovereign in that choice would He? No of course not so God is not Sovereign any longer in Arminianism and never has been in Arminianism.

john.

 

Hello Timtoolman.

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matt 19:24.

I'll take a stab at an answer for you man if you answer this below.

What does Matthew 19:25-26 mean to you?

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Poor choice of verse for an Arminian I'd wager. Matthew 19:24-26.
MT 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

MT 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

MT 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."


PR 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

john.

 

Hello Timtoolman.

What do you mean 'if'? If you can't answer my previous post maybe you can give me an answer to:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Does 'no one' mean no one?

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one can go to who? Does that mean no one can or everyone can?

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Unless the Father draws him means it is the Father that draws men to Jesus wouldn't you agree?

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

And last but not least doesn't this say those that are so drawn have the promise that they will be raised up? Isn't that irresistable salvation? Drawn by God the Father towards God the Son to be raised up into the highest of highs. That's what it looks like to me. And that is what it feels like to me.

What do you think? John 6:44.

john.

 

I would prefer to say it is a "paradox" rather than a contrdiction. Just because human logic has a hard time with something does not mean it is impossible or contradictory.

Is ...

... a contradiction?

No, it is a paradox. It is true, whether I understand it or not.

 

To follow up on an earlier post let me define the context of my comments on free will. The context is related to one's free will in salvation, not in other things at this point. The London Confession of Faith, chapter 9 says:

Thus a sovereign act of God is required to give one the ability which they do not have in their natural state:

Man is therefore unable to turn from sin until he is enabled. The enabling comes from the Holy Spirit's work in giving a new nature. Then, when one turns to God in repentance and faith, he acts voluntarily and freely--and this is key--according to his nature.

At the same time, a lost person operates freely within his nature. Lorraine Boettner in his book The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination likened it to a fish in a bowl. That fish is limited to the bowl, can swim whereever he wishes in that bowl. Or make it a river, or an ocean. In fact we humans are limited as well by our nature and character. We act freely within our limitations.

In regeneration, it is important to note that the Holy Spirit's work of quickening does not coerce the will.

Tom Butler

 

God is Perfect, He is Truth, without iniquity (evil), God is Love!

Praise God, Amen.

(1Jo 4:9) In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect : the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

(Psa 18:31) For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect : for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

As Michael52 said Trinity is a paradox, so is the understanding of men to define God's sovereignty, so is man’s definition of the depth of God’s Love.

Johnp says:

So hypocritical, as you try to force man’s theology! Who claims He is all-loving? The Word does, says He is Perfect , He is Love, He is Truth; we can not even be in His presence without being perfect, Jesus was Perfect (sinless)and in Love died for our sins so we could be Perfect through Him.

I'll let the Word define love for you:

(1Jo 4:10) Herein is love , not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

(1Jo 4:16) And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love ; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

(1Jo 4:17) Herein is our love made perfect , that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Johnp,

How weak to use Esau to claim God has hate instead of loved him less. Jesus used this word when he said:

(Luk 14:26) If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Clearly he is not saying that we have to treat our mothers and fathers and wives and children and our own lives with contempt and disrespect. He clearly means that He is to have pre-eminence. Hatred, in that sense, means to love less. We are to love these less than we love him.

God blessed Esau, gave him promises that He fulfilled, made him a great nation. God had a purpose for this relationship and put His heart on Jacob to show men through Jacob what he wants men to be and through Esau what He doesn’t like: this was all God’s plan to teach us love.

You boys seem to think God’s sovereignty must live up to your (Calvin’s) truth; you deny all-knowing God to be perfect in His sovereignty which He abides in as (Truth). He is Sovereign over all and will always abide by truth because God is Truth and it is “His” Truth which is the self imposed “aseity” of God within His sovereignty that He operates within. So is God limited by His own TRUTH in His sovereignty? Think about that one! Only within Himself because He is LOVE, TRUTH, and He is SOVEREIGN over all.

I have a lot of saw dust to produce this week, (being a cabinetmaker) but when I get a chance I’ll be glad to make some more dust using your sovereignty case.

So far you have a produced nothing more than a character assassination on Him denying His omni-benevolence-(all-good) (all-love) AND His inability to abide within His own truth as He made it. You choose YOUR definition of what HIS sovereignty must mean to make it fit the philosophical definition from a man. I’ll take the unbiased approach, thank you.

 

Matthew 19 24-26

Of course a rich man cares of the things he values of this world, he is not willing to let go of his earthly spirit, he is in the flesh, can’t go to heaven in the flesh, can’t go to heaven in his own spirit, it’s impossible, but through God (being born again) all things are possible.

Quote:
“PR 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.”

Amen

 

What is omni-benevolent about Hell? Tell me if you can see God's love shining forth, He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails...

Show me how God's love does not fail if a person God loves goes to Hell please. love is kind Hell is far from kind. it keeps no record of wrongs A record of wrongs is kept for those going to Hell. It always protects Sounds like you're doctrine is up the wall. Love never fails Show me how God can love those He casts into Hell and torments day and night forever and you win the arguement.

Love is a decision to do good to a person not harm. If all else fails then the lover will sacrifice Himself for the object of His love as witnessed in Jesus. You would have it that Christ died for nothing in many many cases but Christ will save His people. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

..."I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." Rom 10:20.

Did you not hear what He did to Esau and Edom? Where's the God of wrath gone from Christianity?
MAL 1:4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, `Great is the LORD--even beyond the borders of Israel!'

Rom 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Love is love and hate is hate. You can't love less because that denies love and is not love. Love is love. To do good to another. Love doesn't fail. You deny scripture.

I'm going to bed see you tomorrow Benjamin. I'll leave you with this.

That is exactly right. You have understood what is being said perfectly because you react as Paul expects you to. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

In Romans chapter nine Paul has been saying that Jacob and Esau were chosen, one to love and one to hate before they had done good or bad. 9:11.
Paul says that it is God who chooses who is saved and who is toast while at the same time defending God's justice. 9:14.
Paul said it doesn't matter what a man does or what his desire is. It does not depend on those things but on God alone. 9:16.
Paul says that Pharaoh was raised up for the purpose to destroy him publicly and make a Name for Himself. 9:17.
And that if God decides to harden a man's heart then He will do so and He will be just. You thought He was like us.

Paul passes on the answer I'm sure He got for his own question, But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Romans 9:20-21. No says the Arminian. "That's unfair." They say.

We say: It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." 1 Cor 1:30-31.

God is Sovereign.

john.

 

Ben and JohnP, super calvist, where is my answer. Why is it harder for a rich man to go to heaven as it is a camel through a needles eye?! Answer my question Johnp and I will answre all of your qoutes and out of context verses you and all followers of john Calvin throw out. Does it take a specail amount of grace for rich peoople to be drawn?! If man's will does not enter into it then what difference does being rich or not mean?! It is clear that they must make a choice, now is God a respector of persons and mostly picks the poor or is it because the rich who are more entangled in this world feel they don't need Christ. Their money will supply all thier needs.
And as to you verse on draw all and raise all....what is this the new champion verse for followers of John Calvin?!!! Reading in context makes this an absurd statement that all drawn are all raised. Do we not read earlier the same verse but it say all who are called and believe are raised. You are one with the truth. I see that you even say earlier that you are above all your calvinist brothers, more over the top I believe you said. Thats fine follow J. Calvin, I will follow J. Christ. Weren't you the one earlier this summer on here say that God does cause the person to sin?


PS, don't label peopel arminian because they are not followers of the man named Calvin. That is dishonest and shows ignorance on your part.

 

Timtoolman, I asked Johnp who is responsible for sin if man has no choice earlier in this tread and also if man had no choice then who is that sin counted against God??? No answer yet!

Johnp,

Let’s get to the roots,

I think God is Omnibenevolent and Sovereign. I object to your saying He is incapable of being so by sovereignty. I also contend that man must have a choice within God’s sovereignty.

God is Truth, therefore He is sovereign within Truth. We believe His Word is truth because He is Truth. It is theological fatalism to not believe in God as Truth.

So let’s start at the beginning and see how God can ONLY be Good and evil can still exist and God be sovereign over the universe at the same time. God is His omnipotent-omniscient “aseity” exists in truth as a necessity of His nature.

God must be truth therefore in fact He can not lie. (Tit 1:2) “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”

Sovereign God made His creation and said it was good, God can not lie. His creation had to have fallen in and of itself by the circumstances that existed by its choice.

Therefore, I contend that God created the world to be only good, knowing the circumstances could change but did it in Love and Truth.

Your turn.

 

Hello Timtoolman.

I would say there is more resistance from some because of their circumstances. I'll stick with that. Your turn. It wasn't me that said man's will is not involved did I but that God controls it. Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I would say so. It must be harder to work against resistance. The creation of everything was acheived without resistance.

Yes we do it's what I said. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.

MT 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
MT 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Indeed I do indeed He does.

john.

 

So why do you not point it out to me then Bemjamin? I have a tendency to try to answer all points put to me.

You say: I think God is Omnibenevolent and Sovereign.

Ok on Sovereign only you do not view it as omnisovereignty but omnibenevolent is new to me. Maybe you would like to expand on it's meaning.

Omni : : all : universal : universally : without restriction

benevolent : marked by a kindly disposition to promote the happiness and prosperity of others or by generosity in and pleasure at doing good works

God is only able to be nice. Do you agree with that because that is what I understand you to mean?

And as this is the root then I contend man cannot be sovereign. That man is sovereign would be the case where man decides his future insofar as he is able.

If a man is sovereign then God cannot be if the decision the man takes is against God's will.

1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

He certainly uses lies to further His purposes.

But He also said it is not good. Gen 2:18 The LORD God said, "It was not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
So not everything in the garden was rosy.

Do you mean that He did not know if it would change? If yes then do you believe He does not know the future as a certainty? If no then He did know the consequences of creation and intended it to be this way. Which one was it?

Aseity is ambiguous. Maybe you don't think He is self-derived or self-originated but some might.

ase·i·ty : the quality or state of being self-derived or self-originated; specifically : the absolute self-sufficiency, independence, and autonomy of God
"aseity." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (9 Jan. 2006).

john.