God hardened their hearts

You’re definition covers it pretty well. Omnibenevolence is new to you! that could be a good thing.
Sigh… it’s pretty new to me that God is evil, God hates, God sins, God is a liar and He forces people to love Him or He punishes them, what a sermon that would make eh? I did visit a board a couple years ago when I first got on the internet that was suppose to be Christian and ran into several people with what I now realize used a similar distorted view as a trolling method. Thank God I found the BB where I can study for the truth. Not long after I got here I met an RJ Prince who explained to me, “learning theology is like eating watermelons, you have to spit a lot of seeds” man am I spitting now! Twooah, twooah

A disobedient child may not understand it to be very nice to get spanked, but his father does it out of love to produce good.

The root is believing in God as Truth. If God’s will is that the universe be good, who am I to attempt to question Him and put a theological limit on it to prove the philosophy of man. He made us in His image and is sovereign in that decision and He did it in Truth.

It would be waste my time trying to make sense of this passage for you since you think God lies anyway, but the Word clearly says God can not lie (Titus 1) “the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching,” I will believe it as truth; How about you?

It was until man chose not to believe God.
Oh, I forgot, God also contradicts Himself and paradise wasn’t paradise either; that belief is your choice my friend.

Yes, He did know it would change and man would fall. He knows everything that will happen under every circumstance that there is as He knows our hearts and He abides within the Truth, since you do not believe that then it is useless to discuss how He might do this.

 

Hello Tom.

As a Christian does in turning to God you said. I know we will to love Him and have that natural tendency but it originates in God not us. There is nothing good in us but God reigning in His Temple.

As a Christian does in turning to God. And Adam and Eve were what? Satan and his lot were what? The elect angels did not fall because God kept them as He keeps us. This was withheld from those that took part in the rebellion. They lacked perseverance. Perseverance was given to the elect.

So whatever originates in man is of no effect anyway you look at it, the die was cast. We act as programmed.

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

I don't usually quote Calvin, I haven't read much of his stuff really but that above is where I stand.

I feel as if Calvinists try to keep God's Hands clean but in doing so damage is done to His Sovereignty. I'm with Job, even if I was innocent I would still need God's mercy because it is His decision not our sin that sends us to Hell. What you think?

john.

 

John,

I thought that any differences between us were merely semantical or my failure to be clear. I see now that we actually do not agree, although I give weight to your viewpoint, which I perceive to be double predestination. And you are not far from Hyper-Calvinism if I understand you rightly.

With regard to double predestination, here's where I am today (and I may be elsewhere tomorrow): Election is to salvation. Here I quote Kentucky Baptist theologian T. P. Simmons, whose view I share: "Election poses no restraint on the non-elect. It affects them in no way. It leaves them in exactly the same condition they would be in if there were no such thing as election--a condition of spiritual impotence and condemnation, such as all sinners are by nature."

Simmons again: "The death of the wicked is not the result of election, but of God's just dealings with them as sinners. It is their rightful wages. In election, God simply chooses out of the mass of depraved mankind those whom he pleases to save for just and holy reasons known only to Himself. The rest He simply leaves to their just consequences."

I quote him because Simmons puts it more articulately than I can.

I hope I have understood your position correctly, and if not, I welcome correction.

Tom Butler

 

Hello Tom.

Lorraine is a man? I thought he was a female. HaHa! I am often in Sola Scripture reading his stuff. I think he is a good writer.

I think it is right to warn other Calvinists of my position as it might cause confusion. We agree on TULIP I bet.

I appreciate the encouragement. I would say that you articulated your views well, don't put yourself down.

Mr Simmons has erred. He says In election, God simply chooses out of the mass of depraved mankind those whom he pleases to save for just and holy reasons known only to Himself.

This would make Mr Simmons an infralapsarian? God did not choose out of a depraved lump but He chose us before we had done good or bad. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight... Eph 1:4. This makes me a supralapsarian.

Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

You see 'depraved' is not mentioned. I don't know of anywhere in scripture his distinction is found. He appears to have added to scripture.

Passing over those that He did not choose to life is wrong. It was a matter of choice. He chose us in Him before the creation of the world as He chose not to save others. He created those others in inability and the consequences they suffer they suffer because God dictated that they should.

We are created in the likeness of Adam and condemned for his disobedience how can that be just? God bound all men over to disobedience, Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Therefore He causes sin.

We have in Romans nine a description of His behaviour. He chose Jacob to love and Esau to hate before they had done good or bad. He raised Pharaoh up just to demonstrate to the world His power and to make Himself famous. He says that man and his desires and efforts avail him nothing and then He defends His position with, RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust?...
Ask anyone and they will say that is unjust but Paul says, Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

It is not unjust because He told Moses? That's it. He is not like us.

"Election poses no restraint on the non-elect. It affects them in no way..."

No the Elector does though. Not being chosen has the effect.

john.

 

Hello Benjamin.

I shouldn't think so. If it was a good thing then my teachers would have spotted it long ago yet they make no mention of it. I ask again, where is the God of wrath gone?
I would like to know how God can be omnibenevolent and invent Hell because they seem at odds with each other.

...He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. Rev 19:15. Is this omnibenevolent?

...It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. Is this omnibenevolent?

MT 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Or this?

if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. Is that the slap on the hand you refer to?

We are made in the image of Adam not as you say God. Not many know this.

Gen 5:1 ...When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. "
Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

Gen 2:18 The LORD God said, "It was not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

Does God say something was not good in the garden? Oh, I forgot, God also contradicts Himself and paradise wasn’t paradise either... Yes or no?

What do you mean 'He did it in Truth'?

He says He is the Truth why do you say I don't believe it? He says He abhors sinners why don't you believe this? If there is hate in Him then He is not omnibenevolent is He?

Tell me where I gave you the impression that I thought God lies please. In other words, put up or correct what you have said and then explain 1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

...The LORD has decreed disaster for you. Is of course benevolent. Do you understand 'decreed'? The will of the Deity. His desire is expressed and His desire is to bring disaster on a people by feeding them lies. What is there to explain but explain away?

john.

 

John
Thanks for your response. Do you know that you have this annoying habit of using the Scriptures when you express your views. How is one going to have a good discussion if you insist on appealing to the Word of God?
Seriously, you make excellent points. I agree with you on the TULIP. I am with you on Romans 9. And I think I am a supralapsarian. I had not thought through Dr. Simmons statements and their implications. I'm learning that on this board, in a battle of wits, particularly with you, I'm half-armed.
I'm a full 5-pointer, but I guess I just couldn't by into double pre-destination. I'm still not there, but doggone it, you're chipping away at me.
By His grace and for His glory,
Tom Butler

 

I’m not going to go around in circles with you John; there is a big difference between God allowing a lying spirit and God lying. But you knew that didn’t you?


There is a mysterious relation between grace and free will which is very evident throughout the Bible. I will not accept any mans inadequate philosophies as truth nor will I further contribute to this nonsense that involves the misrepresentation of God’s character for the selfish purposes of proving ones interpretations of God’s sovereignty while denying God’s own free will to do as He pleases. I will instead peacefully explore for a reconciliation of these things in my own heart.

 

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matt 19:24.

I'll take a stab at an answer for you man if you answer this below.

What does Matthew 19:25-26 mean to you?

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Poor choice of verse for an Arminian I'd wager. Matthew 19:24-26.
MT 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

MT 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

MT 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."


PR 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]nOt any more of a poor choice for non followers of the teachings of John Calvin then is your no answer to the problem brought up. (By the way Johnp if you don't like the label follower of the teachings of calvin, which many don't, then be honest and don't label everyone an arminian. It is nothing but showing ONCE AGAIN THAT CALVINIST HAVE THIER OWN MADE UP TERMS AND RATHER THEY FIT OR THE REST OF THE WORLD UNDERSTANDS WORDS AS ONE THING CALVINIST GO INTO THIER OWN WORLD MAKEING UP THIER OWN TERMS AND WHONDER WHY THEY ARE SO MISS UNDERSTOOD......aaahhh.)

It appears that rich men do not like the thought that they have to replace thier importance, which is their wealth, with God. In otherwords God is to be ther first love of our life. Now how does that abode with the fact that it is harder for rich men?! It seems if it is all irrestiable grace it matters not the state or race or anything other then God just picks him. Agian more inconsistancey with calvnism and its doctrine of robots.

 

I’m not going to go around in circles with you John; there is a big difference between God allowing a lying spirit and God lying. But you knew that didn’t you?


There is a mysterious relation between grace and free will which is very evident throughout the Bible. I will not accept any mans inadequate philosophies as truth nor will I further contribute to this nonsense that involves the misrepresentation of God’s character for the selfish purposes of proving ones interpretations of God’s sovereignty while denying God’s own free will to do as He pleases. I will instead peacefully explore for a reconciliation of these things in my own heart. </font>[/QUOTE]Ben he has no problem with declaring God the author of sin. He is different then any calvinist I have met. In that sense.

 

So hypocritical, as you try to force man’s theology! Who claims He is all-loving? The Word does, says He is Perfect , He is Love, He is Truth; we can not even be in His presence without being perfect, Jesus was Perfect (sinless)and in Love died for our sins so we could be Perfect through Him.

I'll let the Word define love for you:

(1Jo 4:10) Herein is love , not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

(1Jo 4:16) And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love ; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

(1Jo 4:17) Herein is our love made perfect , that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Johnp,

How weak to use Esau to claim God has hate instead of loved him less. Jesus used this word when he said:

(Luk 14:26) If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Clearly he is not saying that we have to treat our mothers and fathers and wives and children and our own lives with contempt and disrespect. He clearly means that He is to have pre-eminence. Hatred, in that sense, means to love less. We are to love these less than we love him.

God blessed Esau, gave him promises that He fulfilled, made him a great nation. God had a purpose for this relationship and put His heart on Jacob to show men through Jacob what he wants men to be and through Esau what He doesn’t like: this was all God’s plan to teach us love.

You boys seem to think God’s sovereignty must live up to your (Calvin’s) truth; you deny all-knowing God to be perfect in His sovereignty which He abides in as (Truth). He is Sovereign over all and will always abide by truth because God is Truth and it is “His” Truth which is the self imposed “aseity” of God within His sovereignty that He operates within. So is God limited by His own TRUTH in His sovereignty? Think about that one! Only within Himself because He is LOVE, TRUTH, and He is SOVEREIGN over all.

I have a lot of saw dust to produce this week, (being a cabinetmaker) but when I get a chance I’ll be glad to make some more dust using your sovereignty case.

So far you have a produced nothing more than a character assassination on Him denying His omni-benevolence-(all-good) (all-love) AND His inability to abide within His own truth as He made it. You choose YOUR definition of what HIS sovereignty must mean to make it fit the philosophical definition from a man. I’ll take the unbiased approach, thank you. </font>[/QUOTE]LOL, we def. think alike Ben. I have already used the same reasoning and logic from scripture on him. Brought up his new grandchild that was coming, what a mistake. I quickly reminded him how much he must hate the child already. You see if you love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul there is nothing left but hate for everyone else! You just have to chuckle as calvnist once again re-define and change scriptures to INSIST that God hates (insist! like somehow that is a glorious god! seems so warped) and we are robots incapable of a relationship!

 

Hello Tim.

I'm a Calvinist I have no shame. I have labled no one but I said, "Poor choice of verse for an Arminian I'd wager." Not at all implying you old chap but nevertheless I didn't get an answer. Wouldn't you say Matthew 19:24-26 was a poor choice for an Arminian?

I get the distinct impression you have lost a certain amount of control, love is patient, love is kind.

aaahhh

What you come to this thread for? As I asked, is it possible that a camel can go through the eye of a needle man?

john.

 

No john, haven't lost any control here, just like sighing or releasing air. I did answer your question. absolutely nmot. It is a charge against irresistable grace for sure.

 

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matt 19:24.

I'll take a stab at an answer for you man if you answer this below.

What does Matthew 19:25-26 mean to you?

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Poor choice of verse for an Arminian I'd wager. Matthew 19:24-26.
MT 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

MT 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

MT 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."


PR 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Johnp Let me say that I have no problem with your interptation which seems to say the pt is. Salvation is impossiable for man. But why does it pt out for a rich man? I was asking because It seems consistant with the fact that men who have much are distracted or do not feel they need God. Now the poor on the other hand have less attachement to this world. So why do you think he uses the rich man and not just man?
And if it is harder for a rich man is it because of his own ties to this world that he uses as an excuse to reject Jesus? It seems to imply that the rich men have a harder time, did not say impossiable, getting to heaven then those that aren't.

 

I’m not going to go around in circles with you John; there is a big difference between God allowing a lying spirit and God lying. But you knew that didn’t you?</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, there's a difference between lying and allowing someone to lie. However, God is ultimately responsible for the lying spirit because He approved of the plan and caused it to be put into action.

Look at the verse.

It doesn't say, "So now the LORD has allowed a spirit to lie in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has allowed disaster for you."

It says...

"So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

The LORD put the lying spirit in the mouths of the prophets. The LORD is responsible and He clearly takes responsibility, as shown in His word.

That isn't the same thing as the LORD lied. That isn't the same thing as the LORD allowed. If you believe it is the same as either, then your quarrel is with scripture, not with me (or with johnp).

 

Read J Mac's own interptation. He says allowed. The spirit came to him and God says go and ye shall prevail.

I don't understand the big rush on you two calvinist to proclaim the God of the Bible as responsible for sin. Or is the cause of sin.

 

Hello Tim.

And the LORD said, `Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'

Who is J Mac?

entice : 2 a : to draw on by arousing hope or desire : ALLURE, ATTRACT
b : to draw into evil ways : lead astray : TEMPT
synonym see LURE

"entice." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (2 Mar. 2006).

Conspiracy to murder? No, God acting out through cause and effect. He applied the liar to deceive, to lure into a trap, because He had decreed disaster for Ahab. 1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron 18:22.

We speak of God's sure love for those He has elected not a love that is not love. We speak of a love that never fails yet your lover will see you in Hell, mine died in my place. Love keeps no record of wrongs.

john.

 

:You amuse me Johnp really. J Mac is John MacArthur.
He says that the evil spirit came to God and Said "I" WILL put a lying ......

Too your second part. YOu god is satan the father of all lies. YOu make you god out to be a son of satan by claiming he is a liar or causes others to lie or sin. You see the devil is the father of all lies, do I need to look that up for you too.
The God of the bible whom I serve created hell for the devil and his followers. But God has allowed man to choose whom he will follow. That is a relationship. Not robotics 101. You god has teased and tormented his creation, and lies, decieves and is the father or author of sin. That does describe someone, but not the God of the Bible I worship. Actually you seem to be worshipping one of my God's creations. The one He made hell for.

I get to the pt where I can't wait to see your next post. Each one clears up more and more who you really serve.

 

Hello Tim.

Is it? Who's John MacArthur then? He's not the one that said, We'll be back." Is he?

Did he? And?

Yea? What? 1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

Do you believe in John MacArthur then? Should I read what he has to say? You seem to be implying that he thinks the evil spirits can influence a man's will but you say God can't but it is difficult to get your meaning from a quote which is not a quote.

And to your second part.

PS 128:5 May the LORD bless you from Zion
all the days of your life;
may you see the prosperity of Jerusalem,

PS 128:6 and may you live to see your children's children.

Peace be upon Israel.

God is Sovereign. All creation serves His glory.

john.

 

I’m not going to go around in circles with you John; there is a big difference between God allowing a lying spirit and God lying. But you knew that didn’t you?</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, there's a difference between lying and allowing someone to lie. However, God is ultimately responsible for the lying spirit because He approved of the plan and caused it to be put into action.

Look at the verse.

It doesn't say, "So now the LORD has allowed a spirit to lie in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has allowed disaster for you."

It says...

"So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

The LORD put the lying spirit in the mouths of the prophets. The LORD is responsible and He clearly takes responsibility, as shown in His word.

That isn't the same thing as the LORD lied. That isn't the same thing as the LORD allowed. If you believe it is the same as either, then your quarrel is with scripture, not with me (or with johnp). </font>[/QUOTE]You might want to compare scripture to scripture as it clearly says God is Truth, that He cannot lie, and is without iniquity; Shame on you and Johnp for trying to make God out a liar. If God is a liar what can you prove within your doctrine; you have reached theological fatalism my friends.

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

(Tit 1:1) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness ;

(Tit 1:2) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

The “I” here is the spirit that would lie; God knew under these circumstances that “he” the spirit, would prevail.

(1Ki 22:21) And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

(1Ki 22:22) And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

The Lord gave the lying spirit the freedom to do so; similar to Him giving Satan a shot at Job.

(1Ki 22:23) Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

If anything this passage proves God gives free will unto spirits for the good. God in His sovereignty abides within His Own self imposed truth and perfect truth is His nature . I obviously won’t get anywhere with raw proof texting the point that God is perfect in His nature; you boys will have to come to terms with that on your own.

 

Thank you Benjamin.

And if you compare scripture to scripture and find that God allows evil spirits to interfer with man's will what?

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 2 Thess 2:11.

john.