For the "pro female pastor" folks

I do not support the view that a woman can be a pastor, but I don't think any of your questions relate to that issue except a. Issue a is the biblical issue; the others are not.

Also, I was a single parent and I had to work outside the home so my son could have food and a roof over his head.

The other questions about a woman being president, etc. are interesting. At one time, I would have said yes, but I'm wondering now if God's words on women's role and the order God set up are universal or just for the church. That would be an interesting thread, but I would start it in Baptist Discussions probably.

 

Where I just moved from it was so expensive to live that most everyone had to work. But the churches that were growing did more evangelism and were motivate than anywhere I had lived before. There were not any women pastors except one Presbyterian Church. It was dying along with the IFB, the KJVO churches, the SBC and GARB churches. The churches which were doing well were the independent, non-denominational, Bible preaching, and Bible believing evangelistic churches. That was in an area where fewer than ten percent even attended church. The churches that survive and grow in tough areas are those who are reaching people with the gospel and lives are being changed.

 

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a. no
b. yes
c. no
d. no

Serve as President: yes. J. Kilpatrick, Margret Thatcher (if she were a citizen), Condi Rice come to mind.

As for positions of authority in the military, one of the best CO's I ever served under was a female in a comshack in Fla. She demanded much, but had our back when the politicos came snooping around.

 

I do not believe that a woman should be pastor. That being said, your questions don't seem to really relate to the issue. So, I will answer each of them and see where that gets us.

1. No, I would not attend a church that allowed a woman to lead it. A blatant disregard for the Bible would be enough to scare me away.

2. I am not yet married, but I am engaged. She will work outside the home. She has no desire to stay home until we have children. I see no reason to believe that she should stay home all the time.

3. Yes, I was raised by my mother only.

4. No, I am not a woman.

As for the other questions, I am totally lost as to why you would ask them. Yes, a woman should be able to serve on the US Supreme Court or as President. I have a hard time coming up with a reason to argue against this point. If Israel could be ruled by a woman, why should the US believe that God would not want a woman to lead us? As for the military, a woman should most certainly be able to lead, provided that it is not in one of the military specialities that is set aside as for men only. I used to believe that women really shouldn't be in the military period. But, after having a female platoon commander (Marine communications unit) I changed my mind. She was the most professional and motivational officer of Marines that I encountered. I am thankful to have had her as a platoon commander. I can only wish that the other officers I worked for would have been as good.

 

I dont think that a woman should be a senior pasor - but I have no problems with them being what ever else they feel the Lord leading them to be!

As to the other questions
1. No
2. yes
3. No
4. No

I will echo Marica's comment - the first is a biblical issue, the others are not.

 

Growing up on a farm all of us did outside and inside work. The lady in Prov. 31 bought a field and planted it. She made herself strong too. She bought and sold goods and land. So what does that make her? A biblical wife.

 

I think the view that supports women pastors stems from the influence of feminism. It was only around the time of feminism and afterwards, that churches that had had traditionally male pastors started accepting female pastors. Also, women started going to seminary then to become pastors.

I realize some denominations had had women pastors before the feminist movement of the 70's, but it was not as common at all as it is now.

So I think the major influence has been the feminist movement that has affected the culture and the thinking of individuals, rather than any personal circumstance.

As far as women bosses, my best bosses have been men, not women.

 

I see nothing wrong with women being PREACHERS, or serving as an INTERIM pastor(A devout woman pastor is much better than NO pastor if a church suddenly loses its pastor!)but as for a woman leading an entire church on a permanent basis...NO.

Women in position of govt. leadership? Why not? God chose Deborah to judge Israel after Ehud died,(Judges 4) and plainly God was with Debby.There's not one word of condemnation in all Scripture against the office of QUEEN, although several of the queens mentioned in Scripture were evil, such as Jezebel and Athaliah.

And the office of deaconess is mentioned in Scripture. In Romans 16:1, the Greek word 'diakoneo', from which we get "deacon" is used to describe Phoebe.

 

Diakonos means more than a position of leadership. The meanings of the word are: minister, SERVANT, deacon, with the meaning servant and minister being the majority of the phrases used according to the greek lexicon. Phoebe was obviously a servant in the church, not a leader according to the qualifications of church leadership in 1 Timothy.

 

Originally posted by webdog:
Diakonos means more than a position of leadership.

Many forget that it is a position of responsibility too.

The meanings of the word are: minister, SERVANT, deacon, with the meaning servant and minister being the majority of the phrases used according to the greek lexicon. Phoebe was obviously a servant in the church, not a leader according to the qualifications of church leadership in 1 Timothy.

Take a look at the role women played in the leadership of the early church. They were a servant leader among women and children. There was a hierarchy as well just as there is today in many of those same countries.

The following is a part of an outline of a sermon I gave years ago.


H. (11) The women have qualifications too
1. Who are the women? Look at the verses before and after.
a. We know that Phoebe in Rom. 16:1- 2 is called a diakonos
Rom. 16:1 2 - "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well."

She obviously was a servant in the church. Paul refers to her as a servant, a diakonos, the same word used for deacon. As we look at Paul's writings he does not emphasize the office, but rather the function.

b. In Hebrew there is no word for wife. The way it was expressed was "the woman of him." This very same expression is used in the NT. In Greek there is only one word for woman and it can mean either woman or wife.

Of the 215 uses of the word for woman, only one seems to be controversial in its translation.

Most of scripture uses Jewish or Hebrew phraseology because the writers came form that background. Greek was a second language for them.

"wife" - the woman of him
- the woman of a man's name


c. In the Greek text there is not a definite article before women or at least a genitive pronoun following the word "woman". This would lead one to translate that word "women" and not "wives"

d. Another point is this: if Paul did mean wives of deacons, then why did he not include a corresponding set of qualifications for the wives of pastors?

e. You might ask "if Paul meant deaconess, why didn't he use that word?" At that time there was not a word for deaconess.

f. There is plenty of evidence that the early church utilized women in ministry. There were women whose responsibility was to work with other women and children. They performed pastoral work with the sick and the poor and helped at baptism. From the earliest times deaconesses visited the sick, acted as door-keepers at the women's entrance to the church, kept order among church women, taught females in preparation for baptism and acted as sponsors for homeless children. They also carried official messages. There was a clearer line drawn between the sexes than there is today. Women deacons were not on the same level as men deacons. They could not teach and minister to mixed groups of people or men, and they were not ordained.

For the first 1200 years of Christianity there is loads of evidence of woman deacons in the church. However, the Western Roman Catholic church never had them. Whereas the eastern church did

Almost every country outside of the U.S. has women deacons in Baptist churches.

g. The emergence of deaconesses is unclear. But in the third and fourth centuries the office deaconess developed greatly. In a letter dated 112 A.D. Governor Pliny wrote a letter to the emperor Trajan. 'In it he mentions a couple of deaconesses.
(Book X, XCVI, 8, 289)

h. The relationship between the male and female deacon.
pastor-deacon-deaconess-female

The pastor never spoke directly to a woman in church. He went through a deacon who spoke to a deaconess who spoke to the woman in a congregation.

 

A servant does have responsibilities, but is not necessarily a position of leadership as you claim. The waitress at the restaurant is probably not the owner nor manager.

Does a leader have to serve? yes
Does a servant have to lead? no

Your sermon reads too much into the passages that are not there. Husband of one wife means just that. "Wives" of husbands also means just that, not "women".

<d. Another point is this: if Paul did mean wives of deacons, then why did he not include a corresponding set of qualifications for the wives of pastors?>

I don't know if the Bible you have has the same 1 Timothy that I have in mine, but the qualification for deacon and elder(pastor) are the same, and both clearly say that these positions are to be filled by a "husband of one wife" among other qualifications. This cannot mean a woman, period.

Being called a "deaconess" does not mean this is a title of leadership. M.D. and P.H.D are both doctorates, but are clearly not the same. My friend delivered his first child while waiting for the ambulance to arrive. His name is on his son's birth certificate as the "delivering physician". He works I.T. Titles can be deceiving.

 

a. No
b. No
c. No
d. No

Yes - President
Yes - Judges
Yes - Military

There seems to be a hidden agenda behind these questions, am I reading too much into these questions? They don't have anything to do with full acceptance of women in ministry.

 

Carpinator writes:
Well...maybe they do. Thats the only way I can figure some believe women can be pastors/leaders. Because they do not and can not be getting it from the bible. God does not support women in pastor/leader roles of any kind over men.

No hidden agenda here. I will unashameably tell you I believe that women in any kind of position of authority is wrong. You will see what happens when we have a female president in 08
----------------------------------
I personally thought Thatcher did a good job. Also Golda Meier of Isreal. You have crossed the threshold between church leadership and politics. Would you call a female congresswoman (state or fed) a leader or a servant? Or just a representative? What if the company you work for is bought out and all of a sudden the new CEO is a female? Do you mark that down as a leadership post also? Would you quit? I obviously dont agree with you, however, interesting topic.

 

If God had wanted women to be spiritual leaders in the new testament, He would have paved the way by showing women as prophets in the old testament.

 

Interesting that you would say that Paul - the following is a copy of a post I made to a another female as leader thread last month:

Assuming the word prophesy is the same as preach (proclaim) - there are a few examples in scripture, both old and new testament. And assuming that all scripture is inspired..

Judges 4:4 Debra was a prophet & wife before she was a King
Ex 15:20 Miriam was a prophetess
2 King 22:14-23 - huldah
Nemiah 6:14 Nodiah
Isiah 8:3 isiah's wife was a prophetess
Luke 2:36-38 Anna
Acts 21:9 - paula wrote about Philip's daughters - and I noticed no criticism of them

Priscilla taught at the 1st NT baptist seminary - paul sent Apollos to her for instruction. Most commentaries find it significant that her name was mentioned ahead of her husbands in the instrustion of appolos

 

If God had wanted people to use the telephone, he would have given an example in the scriptures.