Calvinism, Arminianism, and Provisionism?

Leighton Flowers offers a new option, Provisionalism. I think what I like most about this is that it removes the discussion from the traditional framing of the debate, which I never really agreed with anyway. After all, Calvin water baptized infants, so he wasn't a sure theological bet, to be sure. This is probably the closest to my beliefs, but I reserve the right to say that there is still some differences, as I noticed a few, and don't yet know all the details of this theological position.

I like his statement about the many who claim that we are not born as bad as we can be. In reply, Flowers states that he believes that the Bible teaches that we are not born as hardened as we can be either, which I agree with. If you really think about it, that's it in a nut shell and a good way to frame the debate. Are we born as hardened as we can be? If not, then it's not total depravity as Calvinism teaches. Flowers has a few of these videos that get into more detail about provisionism and he does provide Scripture used to back up his claims, but those videos are a lot longer. I'm going to get into this more eventually. I picked the shortest one. You can look up "Soteriology 101 w/ Dr. Leighton Flowers" and watch the longer, more detailed ones if you like.

This "new option" is just a new dress on old heresies

Zaatar71 said:

This "new option" is just a new dress on old heresies

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You must be thinking of Calvinism.

Just going by the word of God is not a new opinion.

Well it might be for a calvinist.

Zaatar71 said:

This "new option" is just a new dress on old heresies

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Z

What old heresy is that?

Dave... said:

Z

What old heresy is that?

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Leighton believes in Pelagianism.

Zaatar71 said:

Leighton believes in Pelagianism.

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Based on what? What has he said that would lead you to that conclusion?

Silverhair said:

Based on what? What has he said that would lead you to that conclusion?

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I have heard him say it many times. Have you ever listened to him on youtube?

Dave... said:

Are we born as hardened as we can be? If not, then it's not total depravity as Calvinism teaches.

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Greetings to you brother. Thank you for you thoughts that help sharpen me.

I like to say, total depravity is not utter depravity. R.C. Sproul said something similar. In fact, Calvinism as I understand it is a spectrum (Hypers would deny this and demand strict adherence to their form). In other words, it's not uncommon to find a moderate Calvinist that doesn't believe in utter depravity but does believe in total depravity.

Just to be consistent with my sources in this post. R.C. Sproul writes, "Since fallen people are still capable of doing good in an outward sense, we are not as bad as we could possibly be"

Peace to you brother

Silverhair said:

Based on what? What has he said that would lead you to that conclusion?

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I agree with @Zaatar71. It seems to me that Flowers is saying that people are not so bad or so blind, but can make up their own minds whether to trust in Christ or not. The question is, if they are not bad, why do they need Christ anyway?
And yes, as @Paleouss says, Total Depravity is not utter or complete depravity. It means that people are sinful in every part of their being and cannot please God (Romans 8:8-9). Isaiah 1:4-6 is another go-to passage.

Zaatar71 said:

I have heard him say it many times. Have you ever listened to him on youtube?

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You have heard him say he was a Pelagian?

Yes I have heard him but have never heard him say that man could perfectly obey God by their own will. Have you?

Silverhair said:

You have heard him say he was a Pelagian?

Yes I have heard him but have never heard him say that man could perfectly obey God by their own will. Have you?

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yes, I have heard him say that, and I have seen him teach that man can believe without the Spirit working in him.That is pelagian teaching. Your false ideas and theology are coming from Him.

Martin Marprelate said:

I agree with @Zaatar71. It seems to me that Flowers is saying that people are not so bad or so blind, but can make up their own minds whether to trust in Christ or not. The question is, if they are not bad, why do they need Christ anyway?
And yes, as @Paleouss says, Total Depravity is not utter or complete depravity. It means that people are sinful in every part of their being and cannot please God (Romans 8:8-9). Isaiah 1:4-6 is another go-to passage.

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Hey Martin.

They are bad as they can be in the sense of God's righteousness. Anything by the flesh is not good, and considered unrighteousness. Thus, "there are none that do good". But as bad as we can be in the moral sense? Not even being able to desire the 'Good Doctor'? Paul says that we can desire what is good from the flesh (Romans 7:18), and that's all that the initial faith really is. Trusting in Jesus to do what He claimed that He would do. The ability to carry it out, that desire to do good in that same verse, is from the Spirit after we receive His Spirit indwelling as a result of our initial faith.

Calvinism believes that only belief/faith in the righteous sense is a genuine faith, thus we will never desire to come to Christ honestly without the Spirit. In other words, the unregenerate man will never bottom out in his sin. He will not even desire to want to do good, even for himself, even if it is beneficial to him, because it's from the flesh.

I believe that Scripture makes a distinction between our initial faith, simply wanting what Jesus promised, and the Spirit powered life that begins when we receive His Spirit indwelling as a result of that initial faith, which empowers us to do good, since everything good is fruit of the Spirit and not our flesh. Initial faith, and ongoing faith. Calvinism refuses to make that distinction, instead stretches that life from the Spirit to before the initial faith, making that person born again before they come to faith, which I think is unbiblical.

Martin Marprelate said:

I agree with @Zaatar71. It seems to me that Flowers is saying that people are not so bad or so blind, but can make up their own minds whether to trust in Christ or not. The question is, if they are not bad, why do they need Christ anyway?
And yes, as @Paleouss says, Total Depravity is not utter or complete depravity. It means that people are sinful in every part of their being and cannot please God (Romans 8:8-9). Isaiah 1:4-6 is another go-to passage.

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So if man is able to choose to sin then what would lead you to conclude that they are not able to turn and trust in Christ Jesus?

God seems to think that man can do so as He judges them for not doing so.

Zaatar71 said:

yes, I have heard him say that, and I have seen him teach that man can believe without the Spirit working in him.That is pelagian teaching. Your false ideas and theology are coming from Him.

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Since you say you have heard him say that then you must be able to point to where he said it. So where did he say it.

Also where has he said man can believe with out the influence of the Holy Spirit?

Those are quite specific accusations there Z. Now you need to back them up or retract them.

By the way I was a born again Christian over 6o years ago. So my views come from the bible just as I am sure Flowers views do also.

Just to be clear here Z are you calling me a Pelagian?

Silverhair said:

So if man is able to choose to sin then what would lead you to conclude that they are not able to turn and trust in Christ Jesus?

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Because the Bible tells me that. You have been given numerous passages multiple times. Do you really need me to trot them out again?

Silverhair said:

God seems to think that man can do so as He judges them for not doing so.

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Once again, if God commanded men and women to walk on the ceiling or fly like Superman in order to be saved, then you might have a point. But His command is to repent and trust in Christ for salvation, and people will not do that. See John 3:19; 5:40; 6:44 again, and maybe also Genesis 6:5; 8:21. The unwillingness of Man is not physical or constitutional, but spiritual and moral.
You might also consider Jeremiah 7:22-27, especially verses 24 & 27. 'Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the dictates of heir evil hearts........ Therefore you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not obey you. You shall also call to them, but they will not answer you.'

Dave... said:

Hey Martin.

They are bad as they can be in the sense of God's righteousness. Anything by the flesh is not good, and considered unrighteousness. Thus, "there are none that do good". But as bad as we can be in the moral sense? Not even being able to desire the 'Good Doctor'? Paul says that we can desire what is good from the flesh (Romans 7:18), and that's all that the initial faith really is. Trusting in Jesus to do what He claimed that He would do. The ability to carry it out, that desire to do good in that same verse, is from the Spirit after we receive His Spirit indwelling as a result of our initial faith.

Calvinism believes that only belief/faith in the righteous sense is a genuine faith, thus we will never desire to come to Christ honestly without the Spirit. In other words, the unregenerate man will never bottom out in his sin. He will not even desire to want to do good, even for himself, even if it is beneficial to him, because it's from the flesh.

I believe that Scripture makes a distinction between our initial faith, simply wanting what Jesus promised, and the Spirit powered life that begins when we receive His Spirit indwelling as a result of that initial faith, which empowers us to do good, since everything good is fruit of the Spirit and not our flesh. Initial faith, and ongoing faith. Calvinism refuses to make that distinction, instead stretches that life from the Spirit to before the initial faith, making that person born again before they come to faith, which I think is unbiblical.

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Hello Dave.....,
I don't have much time right now, but I will just say that, in common with many of the Puritans (Most notably William Perkins), I do not see regeneration as a one-off event, but rather as a process. I think it is clear that God must open the heart of someone before he can repent and believe, but also that regeneration is not definitely over until after he has done both those things. I wrote a series of articles about 15 years ago on the New Birth. Here is the relevant one: New Birth (7) The Order of the New Birth Have a browse.

Martin Marprelate said:

Because the Bible tells me that. You have been given numerous passages multiple times. Do you really need me to trot them out again?

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The bible also tells us that we can respond to the various means that God uses to draw man to Himself. Do I need to trot them out for you again?

And we are also told that we are responsible for how we respond to those means.

Martin Marprelate said:

Once again, if God commanded men and women to walk on the ceiling or fly like Superman in order to be saved, then you might have a point. But His command is to repent and trust in Christ for salvation, and people will not do that. See John 3:19; 5:40; 6:44 again, and maybe also Genesis 6:5; 8:21. The unwillingness of Man is not physical or constitutional, but spiritual and moral.
You might also consider Jeremiah 7:22-27, especially verses 24 & 27. 'Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the dictates of heir evil hearts........ Therefore you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not obey you. You shall also call to them, but they will not answer you.'

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The fact that you use the term "will not" but that we see numerous people that have actually done so points to the reality of "free will". We see this in John 3:18, John 5:38-40, John 6:45. I have no problem with the reality that man will reject God but you do have a problem with the reality that man will also turn and trust in God as it does not fit the man-made religion that you follow.

You need to consider all the word of God not just the parts you like. Proverbs 3:5-7, Act of the Apostles 17:24-27, Heb 11:1, Heb 11:6.

Well since God has not commanded men and women to walk on the ceiling or fly like Superman in order to be saved we do not have to worry about that do we.

Perhaps you should consider these words:
Isa 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
Isa_45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

God has provide the means for man to know Him and He will hold them responsible for how they respond.

Martin Marprelate said:

Hello Dave.....,
I don't have much time right now, but I will just say that, in common with many of the Puritans (Most notably William Perkins), I do not see regeneration as a one-off event, but rather as a process. I think it is clear that God must open the heart of someone before he can repent and believe, but also that regeneration is not definitely over until after he has done both those things. I wrote a series of articles about 15 years ago on the New Birth. Here is the relevant one: New Birth (7) The Order of the New Birth Have a browse.

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Hey Martin

That's fine, no hurry. Been there done that. Sometimes God wants us to think it through first.

From what I gather, Flowers believes that prevenient grace is offered through hearing the Word of God. In other words, the Word of God is in and of itself prevenient grace, or God's "provision" for fallen man.

Everyone believes in prevenient grace of sorts. "Prevenient" just means to "come before". The Calvinist believes that it's the Holy Spirit indwelling which makes a person born again before they believe. Calvinism believes that "irresistible grace", as they call, it, is only given only to the elect, is 100% efficient, and has guaranteed results. Arminians call it "prevenient grace", and they believe that it does not have guaranteed results and can be rejected. Positionism, as I see it, is not offering anything new from the Arminian's prevenient grace other than it can still be limited, because not all will hear the Word of God. Also, Positionism defines what that prevenient grace is, God's Word. Where as Arminianism does not and applies that grace universally as a benefit to all. I'm guessing from the cross?

As for Calvinism, there must be an alternative to being born again for OT believers to come to faith, because they could not be 'in Christ' and born again, and yet they believed. If there is a grace that 'comes before' for the OT believer, it must be offered by other means like the Holy Spirit being upon someone, or the presence of God in the Tabernacle, Ark, Temple, and Christ incarnate in the flesh. In the NT, the prevenient grace can be the Holy Spirit being upon or by the presence of Christ through His Spirit in every NT believer. Or it's in the Word itself. Or...

.... the flesh is capable. Maybe we are asking too much of that initial faith? It's just a desire to want what is good and trusting in Someone who promised that they can fix things. Before it was secularized, A.A. was built of that idea. Step one, 'We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable' ...Step two and three 'Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.'....'Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.' It's the same formula, just exchange alcohol with sin, and God as we understood Him for Jesus. I don't think one needs prevenient grace to want this, do you?

Interesting that in Romans 5:1, Paul says that we enter into this grace by faith. Does that statement give us a clue as to if there is a prevenient grace?

Silverhair said:

The bible also tells us that we can respond to the various means that God uses to draw man to Himself. Do I need to trot them out for you again?

And we are also told that we are responsible for how we respond to those means.

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Yes, but people do not respond unless the Spirit opens their hearts to do so as I have shown you over and over again. 'Unless one is born again [or 'born from above'] he cannot see the kingdom of God.' How much say did you have in your first birth? The time, the place, your parents, your health, your gender; they were all decided without reference to you. Why do you suppose that you had a say in your second birth?

Silverhair said:

The fact that you use the term "will not" but that we see numerous people that have actually done so points to the reality of "free will".

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So the Lord Jesus got it wrong, did He? I was just quoting the word of God, but clearly you know better. Also, why do you keep insisting that I do not believe in free will, when I have stated many times on this forum that I do, and the 1689 Confession also states it? 'To have free will is to have the power to choose and refuse, to will and to nill. The fall of man into sin did not change this power; it merely corrupted our nature so that we choose what is evil, and detest and refuse what is good' (Samuel Renihan). 'But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour toward man appeared [i.e. Christ], not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit' (Titus 3:4-5). No salvation outside of the work of the Spirit.

Silverhair said:

We see this in John 3:18, John 5:38-40, John 6:45. I have no problem with the reality that man will reject God but you do have a problem with the reality that man will also turn and trust in God as it does not fit the man-made religion that you follow.

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I have no problem either with your texts or with the fact that many men and women will turn and trust in God. Heaven is going to be full (Rev. 7:9-10). But the fact is that they will only do so when God opens their hearts (Romans 8:6-8; 1 Cor. 2_14; Eph. 2:4-5). But we cannot play "Top Trumps" with Bible verses. The verses must harmonize with one another or the Scripture is false.
Let's take your three Bible verses:
John 3:18. 'He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.' Amen! But this text must harmonize with John 3:3-7. The ones who do not believe are the ones who have not been born anew. that's why Nicodemus was so dumbfounded: 'How can a man be born when he is old?' He hadn't got a clue what the Lord Jesus was talking about, because at that time, God had not given him ears to hear properly.
John 5:38-40. 'But you do not have His word abiding in you because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.' These people were mighty religious, but they did not understand the very Scriptures they prized so much
John 6:45. 'It is written in the prophets, "They shall all be taught by God." Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.' Amen again! The father must put His truth into the heart of a man and then he will come.

Silverhair said:

You need to consider all the word of God not just the parts you like. Proverbs 3:5-7, Act of the Apostles 17:24-27, Heb 11:1, Heb 11:6.

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I agree with all those verses; they cause no difficulty for the Calvinist.

Silverhair said:

Perhaps you should consider these words:
Isa 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Saviour; There is none except Me.
Isa_45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

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Amen to those too! But why not put the words from Jeremiah 7 after them?

Isa 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the dictates of their evil hearts........ Therefore you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not obey you. You shall also call to them, but they will not answer you.'

Isa_45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the dictates of their evil hearts........ Therefore you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not obey you. You shall also call to them, but they will not answer you.'

The Israelites did not respond to Isaiah's preaching, and they did not respond to Jeremiah's either. And God cries out, "All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people" (Romans 10:21). Unless God moves first, people will not turn to Him. But still there is hope for He declares, "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal' (Romans 11:4).

Silverhair said:

God has provide the means for man to know Him and He will hold them responsible for how they respond.

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Amen! At least we can agree on that.

Martin Marprelate said:

Yes, but people do not respond unless the Spirit opens their hearts to do so as I have shown you over and over again. 'Unless one is born again [or 'born from above'] he cannot see the kingdom of God.' How much say did you have in your first birth? The time, the place, your parents, your health, your gender; they were all decided without reference to you. Why do you suppose that you had a say in your second birth?

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I know this is hard for you to accept but God has moved first, it is called creation, conviction of sin and even the gospel message.

I agree that unless one is born again they cannot see the kingdom of God. So what is you point. But you fail to realize that for one to be born again they have to respond to God in faith. They are not born again so they will believe as it seems you think.

Rather odd attempt a comparison of natural birth and spiritual rebirth. I had no control over my natural birth but my spiritual rebirth only happens if I freely trust in God. Do you not understand that?

Martin Marprelate said:

I have no problem either with your texts or with the fact that many men and women will turn and trust in God. Heaven is going to be full (Rev. 7:9-10). But the fact is that they will only do so when God opens their hearts (Romans 8:6-8; 1 Cor. 2_14; Eph. 2:4-5). But we cannot play "Top Trumps" with Bible verses. The verses must harmonize with one another or the Scripture is false.
Let's take your three Bible verses:
John 3:18. 'He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.' Amen! But this text must harmonize with John 3:3-7. The ones who do not believe are the ones who have not been born anew. that's why Nicodemus was so dumbfounded: 'How can a man be born when he is old?' He hadn't got a clue what the Lord Jesus was talking about, because at that time, God had not given him ears to hear properly.
John 5:38-40. 'But you do not have His word abiding in you because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.' These people were mighty religious, but they did not understand the very Scriptures they prized so much
John 6:45. 'It is written in the prophets, "They shall all be taught by God." Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.' Amen again! The father must put His truth into the heart of a man and then he will come.

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You have the cart before the horse Martin. Man is only reborn after they have believed not before. When you start from the wrong understand of scripture then your end point will be flawed.

You point to (Romans 8:6-8; 1 Cor. 2_14; Eph. 2:4-5) as proof texts of your view but they really do not work as you would like them to. As a minister you should understand that you do not rip verses out of context as that just leads to errors in understanding of God's word.

Martin Marprelate said:

I agree with all those verses; they cause no difficulty for the Calvinist.

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If you say they cause you no problem then why do you not accept them?

Martin Marprelate said:

Amen to those too! But why not put the words from Jeremiah 7 after them?

Isa 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the dictates of their evil hearts........ Therefore you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not obey you. You shall also call to them, but they will not answer you.'

Isa_45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the dictates of their evil hearts........ Therefore you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not obey you. You shall also call to them, but they will not answer you.'

The Israelites did not respond to Isaiah's preaching, and they did not respond to Jeremiah's either. And God cries out, "All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people" (Romans 10:21). Unless God moves first, people will not turn to Him. But still there is hope for He declares, "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal' (Romans 11:4).

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Is this how you preach the word of God Martin? I do expect better of you as both a Christian and a minister.

It is a sad commentary on your theology when you think abusing the word of God is an acceptable practice.

But we do agree on one point, Rom 10:21, God has indeed reached out all day long through creation, conviction of sin and even the gospel message. But the part you still do not grasp is that man has to respond either in faith unto salvation or by rejecting Him unto judgement, God does not do it for them.

But as has been said before, we will agree to disagree.