Losing one's salvation

Natters, please don't try and pretend that nobody is willing to discuss Scripture. The verses that you talk about as "no one here seems willing to directly discuss..." have been discussed many, many times. Scripture has been discussed in this very thread, as well as on various other threads in the forum. Just because you don't agree with the interpretation doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed.

Scripture also talks of giving eternal life and his calling being irrevocable and being born again and no man plucking us out of his hand and that we can know we have eternal life.

If I can lose my salvation, then eternal doesn't mean eternal.

If I can lose my salvation, it means that I can't know for sure that I've been saved.

If I can lose my salvation, it means that somebody (me) is able to pluck me out of God's hand, even though he said no man could.

If I can lose my salvation, it means that Christianity is a hopeless, one-shot religion.

If I can lose my salvation, it means that instead of once-saved, always-saved, it's once-fallen, always-fallen and that sin wins in the end.

If I can lose my salvation, it means that Jesus Christ suffered and died for nothing, since his blood obviously isn't powerful enough to wash all my sins away.

Please tell me that what I said above is wrong. Please give me one good reason why, if it's possible for me to lose my salvation, I can ever have any hope of making it to heaven.

 

Yes, I realize that all the scriptures have been discussed, all over the world and for hundreds of years. I'm just talking about this single thread.

I mention Luke 8:13, and people simply say they were never saved to begin with. I point out that the text says they "for a while believed", and that belief is what is establishes our part of entering the new covenant, and nobody talks about that passage anymore.

I mention John 15:6, and people simply say that it's the person's works/fruit that are burned up. I point out that the passage clearly states that the *man* is cut off of the vine and burned, and nobody talks about the that passage anymore.

I mention 2 Pet 2:20-22, and people simply say that I'm taking it out of context, but don't explain why "escaped it for a while" doesn't mean exactly what it says.

I mention John 3:16 and Rom 10:9 and how "believe" in those verses are in the ongoing, continuous action form in the Greek, instead of the simple one-time action form. Nobody responds to that.

I mention Heb 10:29, about the one who is sanctified by the blood, yet later considers it unholy and trods on Christ himself, and the punishment he will receive. Verses 38-39 talk about drawing back to perdition. If there were any responses to this, I missed them.

I also alluded to Matt 18:23-35. No response as of yet.

I have already covered these previously in the thread.

Not true. If my marriage can end, does it mean I can't know for sure that I'm married?

Not true. "pluck" is to snatch or seize and forcibly remove. To stop believing and to fall away is not "plucking" yourself.

Not true. My faith is not hopeless.

I would generally agree with this, with the caveat that only God himself knows when someone has fallen far enough so that they are truly irrecoverable.

Completely untrue. Again, see Heb 10:29. Just because his blood is powerful enough to wash sins away doesn't mean it happens against our will, or else ALL would be saved no matter what.

If it's possible for one to break ANY conditional covenant, how can one ever have any hope to see the fulfillment of that covenant? What good are ANY covenants (for example, marriage), if your reasoning is sound? Think about it.

 

natters,

Amen! Well saying!

There are so many verses in the Bible warning to us about conditional salvation. No way that we can ignore these. Yes, you are right, Christ commands us, that we must be endure and be faithful all the way through our life till death or Lord comes.

Myself used to believe in security salvation for many years. Till I read and realized scriptures showing me of conditonal warnings, there are so much overhwleming and convinced me that there are proofs from the scriptures that we must take heed to them.

I realized that many baptist pastors did not follow hermenuetic rule while preaching or teaching to the congregation- 'interpreting in contextually'. They always pick a verse out of the whole passage what it is all talk about. For example - John 10:28, they often use a verse - John 10:28 to prove us that no person even Satan can pluck us out of Christ's hand, it is security salvation. But, they skipped John 10:27 says, Christ knows his sheep who hear his voice, and they FOLLOW him.

Many Christians did listening pastor preaching the sermon, and did read the Bible, but not obey God's Word. In the book of James says, not only hearer, but be DOER. There are too many 'HEARERS' in America, but they are not 'doers'. I doubt that many Christians include baptists are actual follow Christ. Many of them are still in their own ways stay in the world and being compromising with them. I fear that most of us are not actual follow Christ today. Do not blame on Christ for not hold us in his hand. We are fault and our responsible for turn away from the Lord in our own ways with rebellion. Christ ALLOWS us go in our ways as He looses us away from his hand. And lose salvation.

Natters is right, not because of his opinions, because of what he read and understand the scriptures saying, he follow and obey them. Ge did the right thing to obey and also, he warns to us from the scriptures with truth. Because he shows us that he cares of us with love.

We must back and to follow what the Bible saying, and to obey it, also, to warn Christians and lost people about salvation and hell. People need to be awake up and be alert of it, not let them be deceived and go in the wrong way lead toward their destruction.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Howdy from the great state of Wyoming!

I see that I haven't got you guys convinced yet that you don't need to work to get to Heaven.


Here are some stop working for it because your waisting your time verses:For by grace are ye saved through FAITH ;and that NOT of YOUR SELVES: it is the GIFT of God:"NOT OF WORKS ,lest any man should boast" Ephesians 2:8,9

You have heard them all but here are some more .

John 10:28
Romans 6:23
Titus 3:5
and on and on and on........................and on!

Now here are the just believe and go to Heaven verses!!!!

Well some of them !!!

Luke 7:48-50
" 8:12
" 18:42
John 1:7,12
" 2:23
" 3:15,16,18,36
" 4:39,41,42
Acts 3:16


And about 1 hundred and 40 more like it!!!!

I will pray to the LORD tonight and ask him to show you guys the light !!!

I know that you think that I'm being sarcastic but I'm not, I mean well . I hope you ask the LORD to show you the truth in his word.

I believe,

Jeff B Grover

 

I see that I haven't got you to understand that it is not my position that you need to work to get to Heaven.

 

There are seven Biblical reasons why a saved person cannot lose his salvation:


1. Nothing can separate you from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus your Lord.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
Neither death nor anything that happens after death, or anything that happens while you're living can separate you from God's love. If there were no other verse in the Bible that deals with eternal security, this one covers the base.


2. When you are saved, you are made perfect forever.

For by one offering He [Jesus] hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)
When Jesus died on the cross, He saved you forever. Jesus offered one sacrifice for sin forever. If you ever lost your salvation, in order for you to be saved again, Jesus would have to die again. By one offering He has perfected forever those who were sanctified.


3. Our Lord always finishes what He begins.

Being confident of this very thing, that He [God] which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)
Let me tell you what the Holy Spirit of God does for your salvation. First, He convicted you of sin. Second, He converted you. And the Convictor and the Converter is also the Completer. If God fails to finish what He's begun God has failed and He cannot fail.


4. You are predestined to be like Jesus.

For whom He [God] did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)
God saw you before this world was put in space. He saw you repent of your sin and ask Jesus to save you. And when God saw that, not only did He foreknow it, but also He predestinated it. If it is settled in eternity how can it be undone in time?


5. You are in Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
You are in Christ just like Noah was in the ark. The ark was a picture of Jesus and when Noah went into that ark God shut the door. Noah may have fallen down a lot of times in that ark, but he never fell out of it. Your security is not in a place, it is in a Person and His name is Jesus. And if you're in Jesus, you're secure and if you're not in Jesus you're not secure.


6. You already have eternal life.

Heareth My word, and believeth on him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
Everlasting life is not something you get when you die. Everlasting life is something you get when you receive Jesus. If I have everlasting life, when can it end? Suppose I had it 10 years and it ended. Did I have everlasting life? No, I had a 10-year life. Whatever you have, if you ever lose it, whatever it was it wasn't everlasting.


7. The Lord Jesus Christ is ever interceding for you.

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. (John 17:9)
Jesus also prayed: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil...Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" (John 17:15, 20). Say your name in that verse because Jesus prayed for you! Has Jesus ever prayed a prayer that wasn't answered? No, not one (see John 11:42 and Hebrews 7:25).

 

natters,

I know this can get long, but in actuality, we see our eternal security so clearly spelled out for us in the Bible, that we look at the passages you have cited and we must interpret them based on the idea of eternal security.

This is even true of those, such as yourself, who do not believe in "losing" it per se, but who believe in "walking away" from it. If you have the authority to walk away from your salvation, then the ultimate keeping of your salvation is in your own hands. We see no where in the Bible where we are given that authority.

This is why we talk about the "abiding in Christ" passages as referring to fellowship, not salvation.

 

I agree. He loved us even before we were saved. He even loves the unsaved. His love does not equal our salvation, we still have to believe and accept/return that love.

Keep reading. Later in that chapter it talks of the one who was sanctified by the blood, later rejecting that blood, and receiving the "sorer punishment" and "vengeance" (verses 28-29). How would that be possible?

That's the intended outcome of the covenant, yes. Just like "till death do we part". However, covenants can be broken before the intended outcome - that does not mean God failed, any more than it means a husband failed when his wife cheats on him and leaves him.

Predestination is worth an entirely different thread, but I would simply reply for now by saying that if that's true in the way you think it is, then those that fall away were also predestined to do so, thus "predestination" does nothing to prove or disprove eternal security.

How does that prove one can never leave?

A married couple is already "one flesh" - yet they could still end their marriage later. It's all about the covenant.

The verse you quoted, requires one "believeth" - the belief required is an ongoing action, not a one-time action.

Why would he need to, if we were already eternally secure? It would be a useless prayer.

See, I think that's exactly the problem. When I was first interested in this issue, I didn't know which position was correct, I had no preconceived position or bias to defend. I was willing to form my position around what scripture said, rather than form scripture around what my position said.

Do I have the "authority" to believe, to receive my salvation in the first place?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he (not his fellowship, not his works/fruit) is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

It's there in black and white.

 

but natters, its not forming our opinion around our position.....its forming our opinion around the position we see very clearly stated in the Bible in many other places.

 

Well, since verses like John 15:6 and others seem very clear (in my opinion), perhaps you have misunderstood the other passages in the first place.

For example, how can you say John 15:6 is simply about temporarily problematic fellowship, when the man himself is cut off of the vine, dies, and is burned?

 

natters,
please refer back to my last post!!


DO NOT hurry YOUR interpretation of the scripture!!!

 

SAYING I'm hurrying my interpretation of scripture, and SHOWING me I am, are two different things. How about you start discussing some of my specific points and questions instead of simply repeating vague claims?

If you want to convince me that I'm wrong, you're going to have to explain and discuss things in a little more detail than that.

 

With this in mind, please tell me one place where I can go that Christ won't. Just one. You agreed that Christ won't leave us, so just tell me one place where I can go where He isn't found. Wouldn't Christ have to leave me in order for me to go where He isn't? If you can tell me one place where a Christian can go that Christ won't, we can end the debate about eternal security right now.

Scripture says, and you press the point, that we must abide in Him. Who's measuring stick is being used to know who's abiding and who isn't?

Suppose a Christian cheats on their spouse? Are they abiding in Christ? What if they feel the conviction of the Spirit, repent of that sin, and return to their spouse? Did they ever lose their salvation? If so, do they have to get reborn to get their salvation back?

In the adultery example, did the Christian leave Christ? Did Christ leave the Christian?

And, in all of this, what do we do with 1 Corinthians 3:11-15? Can a Christian suffer loss but still be saved? Could this be applied to the Christian that makes a profession of faith, and really does believe in their heart that God has raised him from the dead, but does nothing for Christ?

CR

PS. Since you said that the Scripture you refer to has been discussed in other threads, I see no point in repeating what has been said in those other threads. I think your admission has taken the sting out of that particular complaint.

 

Don't confuse God's omnipresense with an intact covenant. When the branch is cut off of the vine and burned, the vine is still there but the branch is no longer part of the vine.

As I said earlier, only God himself knows when someone has fallen far enough so that they are truly irrecoverable.

I do not believe such an action, by itself, would break the covenant.

No. I believe that their repentance indicates they were still responding to their source, as the branch responds to the vine. If instead they never repented, and lived out the rest of their life sinning and never repenting for anything, I would think that would be a good indication they were lost. (Heb 10:26-29, 2 Pet 2:14-15, 1 John 3:9)

You cannot get yoursalvation back. (Heb 6:4-6, Heb 10:26). I think that once someone has truly lost their salvation, they probably will not ever be in the state of mind to want it back (until they meet their maker, when it is too late).

If there was later forgiveness, no. If there wasn't, probably - but we could not say for certain either way, but God would know.

Despite 1 Cor 3:11-15 being discussed by others in the past on other threads and in other places, I would be happy to discuss it in detail with you right here and now. Yes a Christian can suffer loss and still be saved. This passage is talking about rewards for the Christian. Note that this is NOT the fire of John 15:6, for this fire tries the works of EVERY man, not just those with poor or no works. Those who have works that are not destroyed by the trying fire receive more reward than those whose works are burned up.

Sure. Although I believe ALL Christians do something for Christ, even if it's only "belief" (e.g. the thief on the cross, etc.)

If you refuse to discuss these scriptures yourself, perhaps you can point out some of these other discussions that have an explanation (with which you agree) of those scriptures. I would appreciate it, as I cannot find where these scriptures are discussed in a way that would directly apply to our discussion.

 

natters, I have to say, your answers took me by surprise, because they're not that far off of what I would answer if asked the same questions. I've done a little bit of digging and could find nothing on John 15 on this board that was relevant to this discussion. I know there are others, but I didn't research every one of them. I did other research about OSAS and found other writings where people oppose OSAS and John 15 is a key passage for them as well. Some of those that I found are unsure what to do about a Christian who goes into apostasy, and it made me wonder about that myself. For example, you made this statement.

So, what do we do about somebody who goes into apostasy, such as disregarding the blood, or something like that. One verse that has been in the back of my mind through much of this debate is 1 Corinthians 12:3.

I hope I'm not twisting Scripture to fit my viewpoint, and I would appreciate hearing any arguments about whether anybody thinks I'm doing that or not. But, I believe that no man speaking by the Spirit would ever say that the blood of Christ is an unholy thing. I believe that this verse can be applied to say that the Spirit of God will keep us from going down a direction of apostasy. The Holy Spirit helps us keep on keepin' on, so to speak.

So, can a Christian lose their salvation? The type of "Christian" referred to in Matthew 7 and 1 John 2 can.

But, I would have said that before chiming in on these debates.

But, to the real Christians that God says,

I submit that the Spirit will keep them and not let them go down a direction leading to destruction.

 

Good Evening!

I read natters' recent post discuss about marry. His post reminds me of Christ's comment on marry in Matthew 5:31-32. Christ says, IF a wife leaves husband, then can given writing of divorcement.

There are so much debate among Christians about divorced. Many saying divorce is a sin. I agree with them, yes it is a sin.

Yet, Christ tells us, that either wife or husband have the right reason or purpose to writing down on divorcement.

Also, Christ tells us, either wife or husband can writing down the divorcement FOR the reason of commit adultery- Matt. 5:32 "But I say unto you, That whosever shall put away his wife, SAVING(except) for the cause of FORNICATION, causeth her to commit adultery and whatsoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

There are three things, the first of two things for the right reason to writing down divorcement: if a wife or husband, who is fornication, or commit adultery. Because, both forncation and adultery are sin.

Also third reason- if suppose you are still single or widow, going to marry a wife, who already divorced is COMMITTETH ADULTERY.

Also, there is another permission from the Lord about remarry, if a wife, who is remain faithful married her husband for short or long time till her husband dies, then she became widow. She have freedom. Also, she CAN be remarry to second husband, which NEVER divorced, fornication, adultery, never marry, widow from his first wife. - 1 Corinthians 7:39.

Often, Christians who believe in security salvation, saying, Jesus Christ is our husband as we are His wife-Church of Ephesians 5:23. So, they saying Christ shall never leave us, He always faithful and abide in us forever and ever.

Yes that is true. I agree with them.

But, the question is, can God have the right to divorce from backslidder?

Yes. In Jeremiah 3:8 says: "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah feared NOT, but went and played the harlot also."

This verse tells us that God was actual depart from Israel, because they forsaked God, and worshipped their own idols, and their sins.

Many Christians might saying, well, The Old Testament is not apply to us as Church today, that is a different dispensation and conditional salvation. As they saying, we are now under the age of "Grace".

Before I discuss about divorce, I want to show you few verses in the Old Testament, that God was actual did depart from a backslidder.

In 1 Samuel 16:1 says: "And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have REJECTED him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons."

When God sent Samuel, the prophet to anoint Saul to became king. God is an omniscience, means He knows everything in the future, He already know Saul will be rebel against Him. Then, why does He sent Samuel to anoint Saul in the first place? Was God makes big mistake? No. I believe God have his purpose or reason. I believe God was testing on Saul, to see if he is faithful or obey Him. When after Saul was anointed to became king. He was actual did obey God. But, short later, he rebels against God, and disobey him. God was fed up with him. God sent Samuel to rebuked Saul for his self sacrifice animals without command from Samuel. Then, afterward, Samuel never come to see Saul again till his death. God told Samuel, that He REJECTED Saul, because of his disobedience.

So, God sent Samuel to another man for to anoint of the next king.

The next verse - 1 Samuel 16:14 says: "But the Spirit of the LORD DEPARTED FROM Saul, and an evil spirit from LORD troubled him."

It tells us, that the Holy Spirit departed from Saul. As God has sent an evil spirit upon Saul-I believe God allowed Satan or demon to possess upon him.

Yes, God was divorced from Saul, because of his rebel and disobedient. Is Saul a lost, and now in hell? Yes.

Christians who hold security salvation, believe that the Holy Spirit already sealed in us, and never leave us according Eph. 1:13.

I agree with Eph. 1:13. Yes, the Holy Spirit is sealed in Christians.

But, let's look at Ephesians 1:13-14 saith: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. Which is the earnest of our heritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchsed possession, unto the praise of his glory."

This passage telling us, when you heard the gospel, believed and trust the gospel as you have believed in Jesus Christ, you are being sealed by the Holy Spirit-WHICH IS THE EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION, that means, onced the Holy Spirit is sealed in a Christian is still being sealed is the payment in the advance TILL the redemption of the purchased possession.

What is the 'the redemption of the purchased possession'? My understanding of this is speak of our salvation shall be delivery as our body all shall be changed into immortality at the rapture during Christ's coming.

Please read in Ephesians 4:30 says, "And GRIEVE NOT the holy Spirit of God, whereby(which) ye are sealed UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION."

Paul warns us, do not hurt or grief the Holy Spirit, which He is sealed in you TILL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Eph. 1:13-14; & 4:30 remind me of a good illustration of a person being engaged/B].

A person is being engaged to a person, that does not mean both are being guaranted to be married. Being engaged is a temporary. TO be married is not a temporary, it lasts forever. A male who is being engaged with a lady, are not yet offically that they will be married, they still are testing each other in temporary, to see if they trust each other and have surely confident each other. Till they feel ready right time to be marry.

Same with the Holy Spirit. Being sealed by the Holy Spirit, does not mean that He is always remain in us all the time forever, Being sealed by the Holy Spirit shows us, that He is engaged with us right now for a temporary.

Because Jesus Christ is NOT yet marry Church till Revelation chapter 19 at the second coming.

Why? Because, the church is still not perfect, and still builting throughout centuries of the age. Because of the individuals of the Church are still in the spiritual warfare right now.

What IF a believer stopped follow Christ, and turn away from the Lord. Can Christ leaves a believer? Yes.

King David warns of his experince testimony in Psalms 51:11 says: "Cast me NOT AWAY from thy presence; and TAKE NOT thy holy spirit FROM me."

David begs God, that he doesn't want God to leave him.

When David was sinned against God, by commit adultery with soldier's wife, and killed soldier of wife's. God was angry with him. So, God sent prophet Nathan to David, and he rebuked him. David awared that the holy spirit was actual left him, because of his sins. So, he repented of sisn to God. He asked God to restore unto him the joy of salvation. - Psa. 51:12. Then, the holy spirit returned back to david again and restored him.

Yes, a believer could lose salvation IF a believer decides turn away and doing wicked.

In Revelation chapter 17 and 18 warn us, that we do not commit adultery or fornication with Babylon. God commands us that we ought be virgin and be holy life. That mean, we must be separated from the world, do not be compromising with the world. OR, if we continuing compromising with the world, God will judge us- Rev. 18:4. God tells us, that we must come OUT of the world.

Jesus Christ is not yet marry to the Church TILL when Christ shall come again to receive the Church in Revelation 19:7-9.

Also, Christ is not yet marry to the Church, till Babylon be judged first- Rev. 19:1-3.

Obivously, there are much overwhelming proofs in the Bible that there are conditional salvation with warnings. Yes, a believer could lose salvation, IF a believer turn away from the Lord, and remain in wicked life.

Sorry, this post is a VERY LONG! But, it is worthy to discuss about salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

There is a major misunderstanding about grape vines going on here! Grapes are fairly easy to graft and the grafts will bear fruit. That's what grapes do.

What Jesus is talking about was known to the farmers of the time but clearly not to many posting here. The first shoots in the spring are the main grape-bearing branches. But the vine will continue to send out tendrils and branches all season long and if they are allowed to remain, they take all the energy from the vine and the grapes are very poor and small as a result.

If you want good grapes from your vines, from natural and from grafted branches, then you MUST cut off all those other branches that come from them that don't bear fruit.

What Jesus was saying in this parable had nothing to do with losing salvation! It had to do with Him controlling the lives of those who are His. We have this tendency, many of us, to get involved in all kinds of areas where God has not wanted us to go, even though the causes are 'good.' So He chops those areas out of our lives in one way or another, so that our energies and time will be put into the area where He knows we will bear fruit.

Jesus' parable about the vine and the branches being cut off is a parable about God caring for each of us, not about anyone losing their salvation.

If you don't think so, I suggest you try growing some grapes!

 

Thanks Helen, but I understand pruning just fine. Verse two even talks about it. Verse two contrasts the branch that brings forth no fruit (and is taken away) with the branch that brings forth fruit and is pruned to bring forth more fruit.

Again, read the whole passage, especially verse 6 for yourself: "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (NKJV)

What is cast off and burned - unfruitful "tendrils" (unfruitful areas and energies) that are pruned off a branch, or the branch (MAN) itself?

 

Someone who is not abiding in Christ has never been grafted in!

 

natters are you still on this one piece of scripture.
Go read the rest of the bible and then if you still feel the same way come back and defend you self.
This is good advise you should use it. Come on brother loosen up a little.