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Two Questions

Deacon

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The study group I attend has been reading the Gospel of John. We just finished John chapter 12 and these questions came up.

If Jesus wasn’t killed by those who opposed him, would he have lived forever on the earth among his people?

If Jesus would have died a natural death would it have satisfied God?
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Deacon said:
The study group I attend has been reading the Gospel of John. We just finished John chapter 12 and these questions came up.

If Jesus wasn’t killed by those who opposed him, would he have lived forever on the earth among his people?

If Jesus would have died a natural death would it have satisfied God?
Click to expand...
Yes
No
 
S

Some Rando

Member
Deacon said:
The study group I attend has been reading the Gospel of John. We just finished John chapter 12 and these questions came up.

If Jesus wasn’t killed by those who opposed him, would he have lived forever on the earth among his people?

If Jesus would have died a natural death would it have satisfied God?
Click to expand...
No
Probably
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Deacon said:
The study group I attend has been reading the Gospel of John. We just finished John chapter 12 and these questions came up.

If Jesus wasn’t killed by those who opposed him, would he have lived forever on the earth among his people?

If Jesus would have died a natural death would it have satisfied God?
Click to expand...
No and no (in that order ;))
First of all read John 10:17-18 and 12:23-33 because they come from John's Gospel. They show that the Lord Jesus came at the command of the Father to suffer and die upon the cross.
Then read Isaiah 53:10; Mark 8:31-33; Acts 4:27-28 and Romans 3:25-26, which all show the same thing.
He had to die on a cross to take away the curse upon sinners (Galatians 3:10-14)
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Deacon said:
The study group I attend has been reading the Gospel of John. We just finished John chapter 12 and these questions came up.

If Jesus wasn’t killed by those who opposed him, would he have lived forever on the earth among his people?

If Jesus would have died a natural death would it have satisfied God?
Click to expand...

If you consider that Christ was virgin born conceived of the Spirit, He had no sin nature.

The Law of God, "sin brings forth death" did not apply to Him.

Christ could not die unless He willed His death, and that's what He did.

God created man to live forever in the flesh, death came into the picture when man sinned.

Christ did not inherit the nature of Adam, and He never sinned.

This gives a new understanding of John 10:18,

"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Deacon said:
The study group I attend has been reading the Gospel of John. We just finished John chapter 12 and these questions came up.

If Jesus wasn’t killed by those who opposed him, would he have lived forever on the earth among his people?

If Jesus would have died a natural death would it have satisfied God?
Click to expand...
Scripture says no plan of God can be thwarted by humans. (Job 42:2). God's predetermined plan was to deliver His Lamb, Acts 2:23. Therefore the premise of question one is "what if scripture is not true?" In that case, we are in deep do-do.

Second question, if the manner of Christ's death would have been different (in any respect) would God have rejected His sacrifice for the sin of the world? Of course God would have accepted Christ's willing sacrifice of His life for the sin of the world, the just for the unjust. However, the manner of His death was specified in prophecy, so certainly aspects of His death were predetermined and predestined.
 
Z

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Deacon said:
The study group I attend has been reading the Gospel of John. We just finished John chapter 12 and these questions came up.

If Jesus wasn’t killed by those who opposed him, would he have lived forever on the earth among his people?
Click to expand...
Being without sin he would never die, But there is no hypothetical in scripture, he was the Lamb Slain before the world.
Deacon said:
If Jesus would have died a natural death would it have satisfied God?
Click to expand...
Again , no Hypothetical, but no it would not. PSA is the biblical teaching ; Hebrews 9 and 10 are more than conclusive;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

jn1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
 
Scarlett O.

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
Deacon said:
The study group I attend has been reading the Gospel of John. We just finished John chapter 12 and these questions came up.

If Jesus wasn’t killed by those who opposed him, would he have lived forever on the earth among his people?

If Jesus would have died a natural death would it have satisfied God?
Click to expand...
Nope on both accounts.

[1] Those who will "live forever" with Christ will be the saved. If Jesus had not been sacrificed, there would be no saved. He may hypothetically haved lived forever with his people, but ALL of those people would be in hell.

[2] A natural death? Nope. A sacrifice, by mere Biblical definition in the Old Testament, has to be slaughtered.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Zaatar71 said:
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Click to expand...
. . . of the gospel according to the power of God; . . .

Titus 1:2, In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . . .
. .
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Deacon said:
The study group I attend has been reading the Gospel of John. We just finished John chapter 12 and these questions came up.

If Jesus wasn’t killed by those who opposed him, would he have lived forever on the earth among his people?

If Jesus would have died a natural death would it have satisfied God?
Click to expand...
Neither would have ever happened, as His cross was decreed and predestined from all eternity
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
If the Spirit of God had not dwelled in the mortal body of Christ he would not have been God. But God cannot die, so the Spirit (who is life BTW, Ro 8:10) had to depart the body of Christ for his physical death to occur. In both cases it was a death, a departure, a separation. First he suffered spiritual death, as did Adam in the garden, the separation of God, in the person of the Spirit, from the body. Next, the soul, the spirit of man. departed and the body was lifeless. Next, because sin was put away by this perfect man enduring the penalty and horrors of sin, he was resurrected from the dead physically (his soul and body was reunited, and the Spirit of God entered and the result was glorification and resurrection. The blood was on the altar and the life of this glorified body is the Spirit. At the resurrection we shall be like him.

Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Flesh and bone will.

This is the reason one must be born again. Jesus our Lord was made like us so we can be made like him. All semblances of Adam will be erased at the resurrection of a saved man. Our body will come from God at that time and will be a much greater body and without the capability of sin because of the Spirit of Christ who indwells it.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Deacon said:
The study group I attend has been reading the Gospel of John. We just finished John chapter 12 and these questions came up.

If Jesus wasn’t killed by those who opposed him, would he have lived forever on the earth among his people?

If Jesus would have died a natural death would it have satisfied God?
Click to expand...
Philosophy class....lol....

1st. No.

For Jesus to be man He would have to die. He would not be "like us" if He did not die.
BUT His death would have to be for our sin as sin produces death and He had no sin.

2nd. No.

Jesus' death was not to satisfy God but in obedience to the Father. For Jesus to be obedient AND die a natural death the Father would have had to have a different predetermined plan.
 
Deacon

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So.... I probably didn't answer the questions as throughly as the person asking them at the group study desired.

I simply said that Jesus was sent to us with a purpose and a plan. The questions fall outside of the plan.
Then there was a brief discussion about when Jesus gained awareness of the plan - all conjecture but many thought it may have been early in his ministry, during the 40 days in the wilderness.

My response (now):

Yes, Jesus would have lived forever, likened to Methuselah or Enoch.

No, a natural death would not meet the criteria for a sacrifice.


Rob
 
Z

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Deacon said:
So.... I probably didn't answer the questions as throughly as the person asking them at the group study desired.

I simply said that Jesus was sent to us with a purpose and a plan. The questions fall outside of the plan.
Then there was a brief discussion about when Jesus gained awareness of the plan - all conjecture but many thought it may have been early in his ministry, during the 40 days in the wilderness.

My response (now):

Yes, Jesus would have lived forever, likened to Methuselah or Enoch.

No, a natural death would not meet the criteria for a sacrifice.


Rob
Click to expand...
Hello Rob, What you are speaking of in part finds it's answer in what would be known as Covenant Theology.
In particular what you have seen described as the Covenant of Redemption. short answer;
1] The triune God Covenanted among themselves to not only create all things, but to wisely rule and bring to pass whatsoever comes to pass.

2] God as Creator defines all reality, he names and determines what is right and wrong.

3]God creates all life and controls and defines even that.

4] All the members of the Trinity agree to this plan and purpose

5]This Covenant made before the world was, is revealed progressively over time

6] The answers are revealed in scripture when scripture is studied and searched out.

As with everything else, because of sin and rebellion, the work of Satan, and worldly distrtactions people resist God, His revelation, His word found in His people who study scripture. One clear example is some would insist that this "Covenant of Redemption is not directly quoted by that name in scripture, but is only a theological construct. but so is the term Trinity.

So those who object look to confuse the issue { for various reasons}. but they do not help but rather hinder those who would understand.
Take clearly revealed things, and rule out obscure or novel ideas, that contradict what is clearly revealed.
 
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