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Calvinism, TULIP, and reverse engineering

Dave...

Active Member
Is this point legitimate? Does Tulip change the way people approach Scripture?

From A.I.

The reverse engineering argument against TULIP
  • The starting point is the outcome, not the text: Critics argue that rather than beginning with the biblical text to form a theology, the TULIP framework starts with a perceived outcome—that not everyone is saved—and then interprets scripture to justify the five points.

  • The system is prioritized over the biblical context: From this perspective, passages are selected and interpreted to fit into the TULIP acronym, sometimes ignoring surrounding context or the author's original intent. The system becomes the primary lens for understanding the Gospel, rather than the other way around.

  • Focus on God's sovereignty over love: Another criticism is that the focus on God's absolute sovereignty, particularly in unconditional election, weakens the understanding of God's love for all people, which many see as a necessary component of free will.

  • Logical deduction vs. biblical induction: The reverse engineering argument suggests that TULIP is a logical deduction from certain premises rather than an inductive conclusion drawn from the entirety of biblical scripture. The argument is that while the deductions may be logically sound within the system, they don't necessarily reflect the full picture presented in the Bible.
The Calvinist perspective

From the perspective of Calvinists and Reformed theologians, TULIP is not reverse engineering but a coherent and faithful summary of what the Bible teaches about salvation.
  • A response to Arminianism: The five points were formulated by the Synod of Dort (1618–1619) as a direct response to the five points of the Remonstrance, a document outlining Arminian theology. The TULIP acronym itself is a much later invention (20th century), but the theological content arose from a specific theological debate.

  • Derived from Scripture: Adherents believe that each point is thoroughly rooted in Scripture, especially passages that emphasize God's sovereignty and role in salvation. From this viewpoint, the Bible's teaching on human sinfulness (total depravity) and God's initiative in election and grace naturally leads to the conclusions summarized by TULIP.

  • Defending against heresy: Many Calvinists view their theology not as a man-made construct but as a defense of scriptural truth against what they consider to be heretical teachings.

  • Clarifying the Gospel: Some Calvinists see the TULIP framework as a valuable teaching tool that clarifies the Gospel's message by focusing on God's complete power and initiative in redemption.
Conclusion

Whether TULIP is "reverse engineering" ultimately depends on one's theological starting point. The criticism views it as prioritizing a logical system over a holistic biblical account, while the defense views it as a biblically faithful and logical summary of the doctrines of grace.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It does change the way one approaches Scripture.

First, we have to remember that Calvin was coming out of a RCC background (with an education not in theology but a secular judicial philosophy of his time). This influenced Calvin's view, but it also influenced how Calvinists approach Scripture.

Calvinists approach Scripture from the RCC position (Aquinas' theory) that redemotion is first and foremost God's righteousness manifested through the law. It is a judicial issue. As such it follows a16th century judicial philosophy that considers the role of a judge as maintaining a type of judicial ledger. A crime is a debt that the judge must collect in order for justice to be done. Justice is a demand placed on the judge. This forms the Calvinistic understanding of the "problem of redemption".

Calvin reformed RCC doctrine by replacing satisfactory substitution with penal substitution. This changes how Calvinists view not only redemption but how they understand the Old Testament (especially the Levitical roles and the sacrifice system).

Second, Beza built the system of Calvinism using Calvin's writings. It was Beza who put salvation under the category of divine sovereignty. Calvinism views divine sovereignty as the sovereignty of the Father and the overriding factor to all doctrine. Over time divine decree has replaced divine sovereignty.

All of Calvinism rises or falls on these philosophies. It is the lens through which the Calvinist views and understands Scripture. Any passage that challenges the lens is discarded as tge presupposed theories are beyond question. These passages are typically by explanning away or words in the Bible are assigned new meanings.

The philosophy is never questioned or changed. Cslvinism is objective but S rioture is subjective (subject to Calvinism) lest the Cslvinistic lens crack.
 

Paleouss

Active Member
Site Supporter
Is this point legitimate? Does Tulip change the way people approach Scripture?
Greetings to you Dave. What a great day God has made!

I would first like to thank my Calvinist brothers (all those that lean Calvinist) for their defense of God's sovereignty. All praise and glory to God. I do enjoy reading those of Calvinist mind, even though I am not a Calvinist proper myself, like John Calvin himself and Jonathan Edwards.

After those thanks being given, Calvinism like any theology (a) sometimes, many times, goes to far, and (b) often defends the 'system' over the clear presence of oppositional groupings of verses. Systematic Theology has become the stumbling block of many in modern times (the need to give every answer and connect every dot). I do not condemn this need to find all the answers. I myself am of a mind to have a great desire for the same. However, sometimes God simply decides not to reveal answers to us. In those cases, one must just have faith that two seemingly contradictory things might be true at the same time (if the Bible seems to indicate such). There is nothing wrong with not understanding.

It seems to me that the concepts of Calvinism, as expressed by John Calvin himself, have in more modern times shifted toward Hyper Calvinism. For example, the concept of Total depravity that every person in the Reformed Trajectory believed has drifted into some kind of expression of Utter Depravity. And in like manner down the TULIP line.

Of course I am of the mind anyway that no one has it all correct. Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley...they all were great godly men in my estimation. But non of them had it all right. If none of them had it all right then what theology do I have wrong?

When I was 16 I found that God had made a promise to me, and all of us, when I stumbled upon Proverbs 2. I have lived by this promise ever since.

(Pro 2:2-5 NKJV) 2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom, [And] apply your heart to understanding; 3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment, [And] lift up your voice for understanding, 4 If you seek her as silver, And search for her as [for] hidden treasures; 5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD, And find the knowledge of God.

Never stop seeking God's truth, He is faithful.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
The teaching of the bible is what is labeled Calvinism. The teaching is all through the bible. Who ever read it and understands it is secondary. The label is a summary of the teaching, not the other way around
 

Dave...

Active Member
@JonC , @Paleouss , @Zaatar71

I always wondered what the appeal of Calvinism was to the new Christian, as many new Christians are now turning to it and it's becoming the popular model of understanding Scripture. For me it was a combination of a hunger for understanding Scripture, and a foundation to understand from to help put things in order. Calvinism, or TULIP provided that. And on the surface, it appeared to have quite a bit of Scripture to support it. What solidified me to Calvinism was my backlash against the humanism that was rampant in the modern Christian churches, like Pentecostalism and Charismatics. Calvinism, which emphasized God's sovereignty was the antithesis to that humanism.

Funny, I still remember Alistair Begg, in his series "A Christian Manifesto", which I purchased on cassette tape as a new Christian, advising us to never enslave ourselves to a theological camp. To always be willing to think independently and always hold to Scripture. Good advise for a young Christian to hear.

I always had questions about Calvinism, I just brushed them aside as 'I'll get it when God shows me'. But the questions never went away. The clear Scripture that opposed the Calvinist understanding of Scripture began to pile up and weigh heavier. What probably bothered me the most was the missing historical context in Calvinism's interpretation of Scripture. That is not just a Calvinist problem, but applies to Calvinism today as well. Identifying that historical context and the differences in the way God deals with people from the OT to the NT should not be taken lightly. Calvinism turns a blind eye to that change in historical context and applies all Scripture to every dispensation as if the context simply doesn't matter. At some point in time the seasoned Calvinist sees that context, but begins to deliberately ignore it, and as a result, begins to interpret Scripture by the system rather than the other ways around.

Lets face it, the deeper truths in Scripture are hidden to the natural man because he cannot see context. We should not take any context lightly. Historical context is necessary to interpret Scripture accurately from the OT to the NT.

Anyways, I just recently ran into the phrase 'reverse engineering' and found it interesting that there truly is nothing new under the sun. This idea that in Calvinism the system of TULIP interprets Scripture has been discussed in the past. I though that it might be worth digging into.
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@JonC , @Paleouss , @Zaatar71

I always wondered what the appeal of Calvinism was to the new Christian, as many new Christians are now turning to it and it's becoming the popular model of understanding Scripture. For me it was a combination of a hunger for understanding Scripture, and a foundation to understand from to help put things in order. Calvinism, or TULIP provided that. And on the surface, it appeared to have quite a bit of Scripture to support it. What solidified me to Calvinism was my backlash against the humanism that was rampant in the modern Christian churches, like Pentecostalism and Charismatics. Calvinism, which emphasized God's sovereignty was the antithesis to that humanism.

Funny, I still remember Alistair Begg, in his series "A Christian Manifesto", which I purchased on cassette tape as a new Christian, advising us to never enslave ourselves to a theological camp. To always be willing to think independently and always hold to Scripture. Good advise for a young Christian to hear.

I always had questions about Calvinism, I just brushed them aside as 'I'll get it when God shows me'. But the questions never went away. The clear Scripture that opposed the Calvinist understanding of Scripture began to pile up and weigh heavier. What probably bothered me the most was the missing historical context in Calvinism's interpretation of Scripture. That is not just a Calvinist problem, but applies to Calvinism today as well. Identifying that historical context and the differences in the way God deals with people from the OT to the NT should not be taken lightly. Calvinism turns a blind eye to that change in historical context and applies all Scripture to every dispensation as if the context simply doesn't matter. At some point in time the seasoned Calvinist sees that context, but begins to deliberately ignore it, and as a result, begins to interpret Scripture by the system rather than the other ways around.

Lets face it, the deeper truths in Scripture are hidden to the natural man because he cannot see context. We should not take any context lightly. Historical context is necessary to interpret Scripture accurately from the OT to the NT.

Anyways, I just recently ran into the phrase 'reverse engineering' and found it interesting that there truly is nothing new under the sun. This idea that in Calvinism the system of TULIP interprets Scripture has been discussed in the past. I though that it might be worth digging into.
Calvinism has an appeal for several reasons.

For one, sometimes people hear preachers they like and assume "it's good enough for them".
It is also an "easy-believism", so some find it attractive because it makes no actual demand on the believer.

But I think some may be drawn to it because it is a very well worked out philosophy. It addresses where other theologies of a Calvinistic trajectory fails (specifically issues concerning sovereignty as Calvinism defines the word).

In the US and UK most Protestants are Calvinist or hold a theology that is derived from Calvinism. This is due to the influence of the Presbyterian church in the US. When you adopt only part of Calvinism you end up with inconsistencies in your doctrine.

Calvinism is a complete stand-alone philosophy. At its core it is independent of Scrioture. The components of its philosophy interlocking and builds on one another. So if one component is missing or fails the entire philosophy collapses.

Say, for example, you attend a non-Calvinistic church that holds the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonemen and you believe that theory. The Theory is Calvinistic (it was developed in the 16th century to correct RCC error). If you are consistent then you will realize that Limited Atonement is the logical conclusion (Christ is punished for the sins of sinners, but this can't be for the sins of those who "remain in their sins").

BUT, at the sane time there has been a movement within Calvinistic churches to "reform the Reformed" and bring Calvinism closer to the Bible. A younger generation has realized that what they are told the Bible teaches is often at odds with what the Bible actually states. I do not hold out much hope that the end result will be much better than Calvinism as they are just trying to re-form a philosophy. But it is great to see that at least some within that sect is trying to seek out God's Word.


It is sad, but I also see many being drawn to Calvinism (and other philosophies) because they find God's Word itself too shallow. Scripture often dies not meet the demands of worldly "wisdom". They view the spiritual things of Scripture not to be "what is written" but philosophical "truths" that are taught by the Bible. Rather than the Spirit guiding the believer, illuminating and applying God's Word they view the role of the Spirit as teaching beyond the words of God. The actual words of God are foolishness to them, they are unimportant. What is important is what leaders in the sect tell them to believe, what they ate told Scripture "when properly understood" "really teaches".
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
@JonC , @Paleouss , @Zaatar71

I always wondered what the appeal of Calvinism was to the new Christian, as many new Christians are now turning to it and it's becoming the popular model of understanding Scripture. For me it was a combination of a hunger for understanding Scripture, and a foundation to understand from to help put things in order. Calvinism, or TULIP provided that. And on the surface, it appeared to have quite a bit of Scripture to support it. What solidified me to Calvinism was my backlash against the humanism that was rampant in the modern Christian churches, like Pentecostalism and Charismatics. Calvinism, which emphasized God's sovereignty was the antithesis to that humanism.
Hello Dave, The appeal among believers is simply it is the truth of God. It is not easy to believe, in fact many teachings go against the thoughts and intents of the heart of fallen mankind.
Funny, I still remember Alistair Begg, in his series "A Christian Manifesto", which I purchased on cassette tape as a new Christian, advising us to never enslave ourselves to a theological camp. To always be willing to think independently and always hold to Scripture. Good advise for a young Christian to hear.
This has some merit, but can be abused also. This is a large discussion by itself.
I always had questions about Calvinism, I just brushed them aside as 'I'll get it when God shows me'.
Questions about Calvinism when examined are how does scripture bring the Whole man to The whole Christ.
But the questions never went away.
yes, because truth does not go away, but exists alongside error. The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest.
The clear Scripture that opposed the Calvinist understanding of Scripture began to pile up and weigh heavier.
If you believe this is so, by all means ask those questions, and present those verses to an actual Calvinist. What I mean is, there are many who have failed to understand the teaching, and react to caricatures ,and strawmen. This is a common pet peeve of Calvinists, in that they come across this all the time. Dave, would you look to send a friend or family member who was seeking after what is a Christian, to a person who says, oh yeah, I used to be a Christian, but I am no longer a Christian now. I have found out something better. I have found out something no other Christian knows about! Listen to me , instead of other Christians? Would you take your car or computer for repairs, to someone who has no idea how to fix it?
What probably bothered me the most was the missing historical context in Calvinism's interpretation of Scripture.
Perhaps you have not found the correct information to help you in your search. Listening to detractors, will not help with that! look at what gets posted on this message board, and others. There is a sharp divide.
That is not just a Calvinist problem, but applies to Calvinism today as well. Identifying that historical context and the differences in the way God deals with people from the OT to the NT should not be taken lightly.
Agreed. It can be a problem, or it might not be a problem. That would be determined on a case-to-case basis
Calvinism turns a blind eye to that change in historical context and applies all Scripture to every dispensation as if the context simply doesn't matter.
Most Calvinists are Covenant theologians so they view the 66 books as united, not fragmented. So, it is not a blind eye, but rather they do not divide what God has joined together, like dispensational thought does,
At some point in time the seasoned Calvinist sees that context, but begins to deliberately ignore it, and as a result, begins to interpret Scripture by the system rather than the other ways around.
I have found the complete opposite
Lets face it, the deeper truths in Scripture are hidden to the natural man
David, all scriptural truth is hidden to the natural man 1cor2;14, not just the "deeper truths" All truth is hidden from them.
because he cannot see context.
No, it is because he does not have a new heart, by new birth. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, natural man is blinded by, the world, the flesh, the devil
We should not take any context lightly. Historical context is necessary to interpret Scripture accurately from the OT to the NT.
okay
Anyways, I just recently ran into the phrase 'reverse engineering' and found it interesting that there truly is nothing new under the sun. This idea that in Calvinism the system of TULIP interprets Scripture has been discussed in the past. I though that it might be worth digging into.
People who oppose truth have to come up with a reason or justification for why they do not believe, truth is truth.
Reverse engineering is just such an idea.
 

Dave...

Active Member
If you believe this is so, by all means ask those questions, and present those verses to an actual Calvinist. What I mean is, there are many who have failed to understand the teaching, and react to caricatures ,and strawmen. This is a common pet peeve of Calvinists, in that they come across this all the time. Dave, would you look to send a friend or family member who was seeking after what is a Christian, to a person who says, oh yeah, I used to be a Christian, but I am no longer a Christian now. I have found out something better. I have found out something no other Christian knows about! Listen to me , instead of other Christians? Would you take your car or computer for repairs, to someone who has no idea how to fix it?
Hey Z

I have. You'll see a sampling below of some threads I started.

Most Calvinists are Covenant theologians so they view the 66 books as united, not fragmented. So, it is not a blind eye, but rather they do not divide what God has joined together, like dispensational thought does,

Would you then agree that 'Covenant' and 'Testament' basically means the same thing? The Old Covenant and the New Covenant are distinct from each other in many ways, as is not only evidenced by the writer of the book of Hebrews, but each is also distinct from the other in the relationship between the Holy Spirit and man from the Old to the New Covenant.

Hebrews outline by Kenneth Wuest.

Hades/Sheol, and it's absence from reformed theology.

David, all scriptural truth is hidden to the natural man 1cor2;14, not just the "deeper truths" All truth is hidden from them.

In the New Covenant, God draws all people to Himself (John 12:32). That would be nonsense if all people were unable to understand the Gospel message. Notice He says the same thing in (John 3:13-15), that the Son of man must first be lifted up before anyone could be indwelt with the Holy Spirit and born again and see those deeper truths (John 7:38-39). The deeper truths that nobody could understand until they were indwelt with the Holy Spirit and were born again (John 16:12-14). With the birth of the Church, the first placed into Christ and born again with the first indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and all OT believers living added, now had the Seed/Light within them (indwelling) to evangelize the world (John 12:35-36) (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). Compare 1 Corinthians 2:14 with John 7:38-39. In John 7:38-39, they believed before they had the indwelling and before they were born again, and still did not yet understand the deeper truths of Scripture. As it was for all OT believers. Did you ever notice the difference of the Apostles before and after Pentecost? That's because after Pentecost with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit they were born again and then could understand those deeper truths.

What does man need to be blinded if he already cannot see? I posed the question and you were the first to respond, but you never really answered.

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

No, it is because he does not have a new heart, by new birth. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, natural man is blinded by, the world, the flesh, the devil

If He is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, he has a new heart, and has been born again, then he has no need for faith, he's is already complete in Christ (Romans 8:9-10). The problem for the Calvinist is that the indwelling is the result of the initial faith (Galatians 3:2-3, Romans 5:2), and only the cause of the ongoing faith (Hebrews 12:2), or the life. By grace through faith we are saved (Ephesians 2:8).

What does the Bible teach us about the spiritual mechanics of being born again? (Some very important context for the Calvinist)

In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'?

Some proof texts confronted.

John 1:12-13 revisited.

1 John 5:1 revisited.

People who oppose truth have to come up with a reason or justification for why they do not believe, truth is truth.
Reverse engineering is just such an idea.

Calvinism strains out a gnat by adhering to the theological system TULIP, and swallows a camel by ignoring the context of each of the proof texts that make up that system. A failure to recognize the historical context will make it impossible to understand the Gospels and the transition taking place.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Hey Z

I have. You'll see a sampling below of some threads I started.



Would you then agree that 'Covenant' and 'Testament' basically means the same thing? The Old Covenant and the New Covenant are distinct from each other in many ways, as is not only evidenced by the writer of the book of Hebrews, but each is also distinct from the other in the relationship between the Holy Spirit and man from the Old to the New Covenant.

Hebrews outline by Kenneth Wuest.

Hades/Sheol, and it's absence from reformed theology.



In the New Covenant, God draws all people to Himself (John 12:32). That would be nonsense if all people were unable to understand the Gospel message. Notice He says the same thing in (John 3:13-15), that the Son of man must first be lifted up before anyone could be indwelt with the Holy Spirit and born again and see those deeper truths (John 7:38-39). The deeper truths that nobody could understand until they were indwelt with the Holy Spirit and were born again (John 16:12-14). With the birth of the Church, the first placed into Christ and born again with the first indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and all OT believers living added, now had the Seed/Light within them (indwelling) to evangelize the world (John 12:35-36) (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). Compare 1 Corinthians 2:14 with John 7:38-39. In John 7:38-39, they believed before they had the indwelling and before they were born again, and still did not yet understand the deeper truths of Scripture. As it was for all OT believers. Did you ever notice the difference of the Apostles before and after Pentecost? That's because after Pentecost with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit they were born again and then could understand those deeper truths.

What does man need to be blinded if he already cannot see? I posed the question and you were the first to respond, but you never really answered.

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?



If He is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, he has a new heart, and has been born again, then he has no need for faith, he's is already complete in Christ (Romans 8:9-10). The problem for the Calvinist is that the indwelling is the result of the initial faith (Galatians 3:2-3, Romans 5:2), and only the cause of the ongoing faith (Hebrews 12:2), or the life. By grace through faith we are saved (Ephesians 2:8).

What does the Bible teach us about the spiritual mechanics of being born again? (Some very important context for the Calvinist)

In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'?

Some proof texts confronted.

John 1:12-13 revisited.

1 John 5:1 revisited.



Calvinism strains out a gnat by adhering to the theological system TULIP, and swallows a camel by ignoring the context of each of the proof texts that make up that system. A failure to recognize the historical context will make it impossible to understand the Gospels and the transition taking place.
Dave, Thanks for posting. I am doing four different things right now, but I would like to go over what you have posted, line by line.
Short response is, I like how you are looking things over. I like Weust on somethings, not so much on others, but I like the fact that you are more than willing to search it out! We are going to agree on many things, but where we will sharpen each other is offering up areas where we differ to be able to interact on them. Once I complete half of my tasks, I will work through what you have offered carefully. I do want to take time with it, being you took the time to offer it!, later on!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@DaveXR650 ,

Both Dispensationalism (developed in a detailed form by Isaac Watts, later formulated by Darby) and Covenant Theology (developed in a basic form by Zwingli and Oecolampadius) originated within Calvinism as ways of viewing "God's economy".

Covenant Theology is a framework some use to understand the Bible. There are several covenants within this scheme (most are not biblical per se but are determined to be necessary or implied).

The "Covenant of Redemption" is a supposed covenant between the Father and Son before creation.
The "Covenant of Works" is a supposed covenant God made with Adam.
The "Covenant of Grace" is a supposed covenant that began after the Fall that the elect will be saved through faith (it is the same through the OT and NT).

What you are speaking of are covenants established in the Bible (Abrahamic Covenant, Old or Mosaic Covenant, and the New Covenant).

These (the covenants in the Bible) would fall under their "Covenant of Grace".
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Clarifying the Gospel: Some Calvinists see the TULIP framework as a valuable teaching tool that clarifies the Gospel's message by focusing on God's complete power and initiative in redemption.
Yes it is the Gospel of God's Grace clarified. Acts 20:24-27

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
 
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