If Leighton flowers agrees with It, I don’t need to watch it to know I disagree with it.
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Calvinism, Arminianism, and Provisionism?
- Thread starter Dave...
- Start date
"Test all things; hold fast what is good."
Sorry, somehow I missed this. I'll check it out tonight. Thanks
Ultimately Calvinism minimizes God and elevates man.
In the Bible when God acts this is based on His own nature which is proclaimed. Sometimes God acts for a specific purpose and so that all do not respond He hardens their hearts (like with Pharoah - God's actions are no so benign that they do not draw men, so God hardened Pharoah's heart to accomplish His plan).
Hey Martin.
Most Calvinists see two choices, born again or the flesh. That's the biggest error right there. OT believers could not be born again, yet they believed. Even Calvin recognized this, but, I believe he started with the wrong framework foundationally. He recognized that there was a difference in regeneration from the OT to the NT, but framed it with the assumption that OT believers must have been born again, and thus regenerate, and that what happened in the NT must be something more. Half of that is true. What happened in the NT WAS something more, but that 'more' was being born again. Foundationally, the OT believers could not be born again.
Calvin assumed OT believers must have been born again, how else could they believe? He reasoned. That assumption is based off of a faulty understanding of Scripture, mainly idea total depravity and ignoring the historical context that I spoke about earlier.
Did you mean to say Arminianism minimizes God and elevates man?
Although I believe both are wrong, no, that is not what I meant to say.
Calvinism treats God as if He were "the old man upstairs". They view the mind of God snd the mind of man as equal in nature and power (God cannot achieve His will in salvation except this go against man's will). The only way God can be sovereign is to decree all that occurs. Why? Because that woukd be the only way for man to be completely sovereign. God cannot be above man, man cannot be below God.
Arminianism, for its flaws, does not share this trait.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Calvinism certainly does not view God as if He were the old man upstairs. Take the first paragraph of Part II of the Westminster Confession of Faith, for example:
"II. Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
I. There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal most just and terrible in his judgments; hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty."
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, also Calvinistic, says the same.
Correct and right on point David. Have you noticed that those who cannot really understand the truth correctly inevitably feel the need to drag others down to their unchristian level of rebellion against believers, and ultimately they can be identified as enemies of the cross?
To even speak profanely of Our Holy God is a disgrace. They cover it up by projecting it upon bible believers as if their opinion is somehow a fact?
Thanks for your helpful post, and pointing a spotlight on this error!
I fid not mean that literally. I meant that when God's will is involved Calvinism treats God as if He were man (God's will vs man's will).
John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Dave, explain to us your understanding of 1 cor2:14
You did mean it, and as David and others call you on it, now you try and backtrack as if you never posted it, lol.
No we have seen several examples of this. try not to post such foolish ideas, unless you stand by what you post!
let's do away with this tired excuse once and for all.
OK my bad.
I just assumed that you mistakenly made the comment backwards, or said Calvinism but meant Arminianism, because my dyslexia makes me do things like that all the time. I get the gist of what you're saying. Two opposing wills, one must overturn the other. I would probably word it differently though. You could make the same point about Arminian free will God's will. Calvinism would appear to be opposite of that.
Enter compatibilism. I'm sure you're aware of that theological understanding and study.
God does decree all that occurs. But at the same time, man makes responsible choices. The Bible teaches both. In fact, God's decree is based on His will. He works all things according to the council of His will. Just because God decrees something, doesn't mean that He positively causes it. Man can and does make responsible choices. It's not something that we are supposed to grasp in it's full depth of understanding, I suppose. We have the mind of Christ and the written Word, but there's always 'for who has known the mind of God...'.
Hey Z
1 Corinthians 2:14 is speaking about understanding the deeper truths of Scripture, not what one needs to be know to come to a saving faith.
Paul's whole point to the Corinthians was that they were seeking truth by the flesh through worldly philosophies Paul could only feed them the milk of the Word because they were still infants in understanding. Paul then contrasts those worldly philosophies sought by the flesh with spiritual truths that are decerned by the Spirit. These are the deeper truths in Scripture, not the Gospel message.
My point was that OT believers believed, but did not yet have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and as a result were not yet born again. These are crystal clear texts that show these believed, had faith, but were not born again. They believed, but did not yet have the Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit indwelling, you don't have Christ Jesus and are not born again. (Romans 8:9-11)
These OT believers already believed, but where not indwelt (baptism with the Holy Spirit) and born again. That could not happen until Christ was Glorified. See Romans 6:3-11, Coll. 2:10-14, Gal. 3:26-27, 1 Peter 3:21-22, **John 3:3-14.**
OT John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
OT 14:25-26 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
OT 15:15-26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
OT 16:7-14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
One does not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and to be born again to come to faith in Jesus Christ. However, after that initial faith, the Spirit (after Pentecost) will enter that believer (baptism with the Holy Spirit), giving Him access to those truths previously hidden to Him (1 Corinthians 2:14). Also giving Him the ability to produce fruit that is good and righteous by God's standards, from the Spirit.
So...Your belief is, that a man does not need the Holy Spirit, to go from death to life? he can do it on his own strength and ability?, Then after he does all the work on his own, then the Spirit comes in and allows him to see "deeper" things???? is that close?
"...the Bible teaches that we are not born as hardened as we can be either, which I agree with."
(Eze 11:19 KJV) And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Scripture states that the natural is born in a state of separation from God. Regardless of the degree of hardness, it is enough that in order to have a relationship with God, He must "...take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:"
Dave, since you state you agree "...we are not born as hardened as we can be...", please provide scripture to support your position.
Are we spiritual dead in Adam. and only made alive again in christ?
Nothing new under the Sun
He is like the Apostle of Charles Finney