At least we would know what true Gospel meant
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I thought Baptists followed scripture
- Thread starter Mur
- Start date
I would step into any church that taught the real gospel
atpollard
Well-Known Member
To be fair, they teach EFFECTUAL "sacraments" vs SYMBOLIC "ordinances" (emphasizing the difference between Catholics and Baptists).
Okay, Walter - Please explain with Scripture how a person may obtain the way to Heaven?
Respectfully, Salty, I have been on this board for years and have given my testimony and conversion experience countless times. I really don't see any point in doing so yet again.
I have said before that I place my faith and trust in Jesus Christ and his redemptive work on the Cross for salvation. That should satisfy any Baptist or evangelical on this board that I am Christian. I also believe the Catholic faith is the Apostolic faith.
Borrowed:
The Church understands that we are all sinners in need of a savior (Rom 5:12-21). We are inheritors of original sin and all its consequences, and by actual sin we distance ourselves from God. We can’t save ourselves, but we don’t need to: Jesus Christ has paid the price for our sins. The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus alone (Acts 4:12), since he is the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tm 2:5-6).
The saving grace won by Jesus is offered as a free gift to us, accessible through repentance, faith, and baptism. We turn away from our sins, we are sorry for them, and we believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel. Repentance shows our willingness to turn from things that keep us from God, and baptism renews us, filling us with the grace necessary to have faith and to live it. This belief is more than just “head knowledge.” Even the demons have that (Jas 2:19). It’s more than just believing you’re saved. Even the Pharisees had that (Jn 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: It is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6, cf. Jas 2:1-26).
Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). THIS IS THE REAL BIBLICAL PLAN OF SALVATION
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Keep in mind that we constantly have new members.
Just to clarify:
1) does a person have to be baptized to go to heaven?
2) are any of the other sacraments required to get to heaven?
3) Are any works required to get to heaven?
4) Will everyone go to purgatory?
5) Is it possible to loose your salvation
6) If someone does not go to Heaven - will they go to Hell (Lake of Fire)?
1. Not always. The martyrs in the circus had no opportunity to be baptized, nor did the thief on the cross. The Church had always recognized baptism by desire/or blood of martyrs.
2. . The Church also teaches that God is not bound by the sacraments, meaning salvation is possible for those who, through no fault of their own, are not able to receive them but who live a virtuous life and are united to God through faith, love, and a desire for the Church.
3. This was fully explained in my previous post.
4. Every saved Christian will likely experience Purgatory. It's not IF the shed blood of Jesus is applied for our salvation but when. You say just accept Jesus into your heart and all sins past, present and future are forgiven. We believe as scripture supports that nothing unpure enter heaven. Purgatory is not 'a second chance fir salvation'
5. As Freewill Baptist believe, a person can reject God and recant of their faith in Christ. So, as many Baptist believe, you can lose your salvation.
6. Contrary to the Universalists who have begun many recent thread here, if you leave thus world rejecting the salvation offered through Christ, our one mediator and advocate, the will go to Hell.
1) So, are you saying if a person has the opportunity to be baptizes but chooses not to - will he go to heaven?
2) So, are you saying if a person has the opportunity but chooses to ignore the sacraments,- will he go to heaven?
3) I may address this later
4) Where does the Bible teach Purgatory?
5) Most Baptists do believe in Eternal Security
6) Looks like we agree on this one!
As you said, Salty, there are new people visiting this board all the time.
Let's look at purgatory first. While the word is not used in scripture, neither is Trinity,, Incarnation, etc.
I find biblical support for purgatory in passages like I Cor 3:11-15 which describes works being tested by fire, and Matthew 12:32, where Jesus speaks of a sin that will not be forgiven "either in this age or in the age to come". Another key passage is Matthew 5:25–26, which uses the metaphor of being thrown into prison until the "last penny" is paid to represent a form of purification after death. Again, it's not a question of whether or not Christ sacrifice on the cross is sufficient to take away our sins but at what point it is applied. You would say at the time a person receives Christ as Savior, Catholicism teaches if we die with the stain of sin in our lives we need purification before we enter heaven.
I know none of this is new to you, but again maybe it is to some new members. John F. MacArthur once referred to purgatory as a 2nd chance for Catholics showing that very learned people can mispeak about what the Catholic Church teaches.
I am on the road today so I will check back when I can and address the other issues. BTW, I know quite a few Baptist that question Eternal Security and I suspect most Christians do.
Let's look at purgatory first. While the word is not used in scripture, neither is Trinity,, Incarnation, etc.
I find biblical support for purgatory in passages like I Cor 3:11-15 which describes works being tested by fire, and Matthew 12:32, where Jesus speaks of a sin that will not be forgiven "either in this age or in the age to come". Another key passage is Matthew 5:25–26, which uses the metaphor of being thrown into prison until the "last penny" is paid to represent a form of purification after death. Again, it's not a question of whether or not Christ sacrifice on the cross is sufficient to take away our sins but at what point it is applied. You would say at the time a person receives Christ as Savior, Catholicism teaches if we die with the stain of sin in our lives we need purification before we enter heaven.
I know none of this is new to you, but again maybe it is to some new members. John F. MacArthur once referred to purgatory as a 2nd chance for Catholics showing that very learned people can mispeak about what the Catholic Church teaches.
I am on the road today so I will check back when I can and address the other issues. BTW, I know quite a few Baptist that question Eternal Security and I suspect most Christians do.
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
The BIBLE itself presents a tension on this subject.
On the one hand we have clear promises:
John 10:28-29 [ESV]
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Romans 8:31-39 [ESV]
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
As it is written,
"For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
Ephesians 1:13-14 [ESV]
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
On the other hand we have clear warnings:
Galatians 1:6-9 [ESV]
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Hebrews 10:26-31 [ESV]
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1 John 2:19 [ESV]
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
If someone is convicted of the truth of something but rejects it, then it becomes grave matter, then it’s answerable.
Every rejection of truth in essence is a rejection of Christ who is The Truth.
One degree off true over distance leads to great separation.
This is why Scripture must be interpreted in all truth, not the slightest deviation or fallible human interpretation.
“The untaught and unstable will twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.”
Misinterpretation of Scripture is deadly. Get one thing wrong and it will lead to other things wrong in a cascade of error.
Take Baptism, Zwingli comes along and decided to interpret scripture that baptism is only symbolic, not regenerational. Totally against all Christianity’s interpretation from the beginning, even against Luther and Calvin.
Deviate just one thing in interpretation of scripture leads to destruction.
As this new interpretation takes, people thinking baptism is merely symbolic may not bother, and lose their salvation as a result.
The guy who interpreted the error in the first place, is answerable for every subsequent soul lost because of his error. Also those that perpetuate the error that costs more souls, may to a lesser degree be culpable as well.
So Jesus meant that unless people are regenerated by water Baptism, they shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Serious consequences for getting this wrong.
Baptism was one “unless” lesson Jesus truly truly taught. Get it wrong and serious consequences follow.
Another is “ Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. “
“ My flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “
Mess this interpretation up and destruction follows.
Say a Catholic goes to Judgement getting this interpretation wrong. Then the Lord asks him why he believed that His flesh was real food and blood was drink? And that by eating and drinking the flesh and blood he would have eternal life and be raised on the last day.
The Catholic will simply point to Jesus words in Scripture ‘ You said in Scripture that your flesh was real food and your blood was real drink. You said in Scripture that unless we eat your flesh and drink your blood we would have no life in us ‘
‘ You said that heaven and earth would pass away, but that your words would never pass away, and we believed, we stood on your word in faith and did as you commanded and ate your flesh and drank your blood ‘
Can the Lord deny His own words that stand for all time and eternity?
A Protestant gets this interpretation wrong and at Judgement is questioned by The Lord, why he did not believe His flesh was real food and blood was real drink. Why did you not eat my flesh and drink my blood as I commanded you?
What then could he say?
Jesus will point him to the scripture, these are the words I gave to you, and you did not believe my flesh is real food and blood is real drink, and you did not do as I commanded and eat my flesh and drink my blood to have eternal life.