Disagreements about the Atonement

DaveXR650 said:

Well.....Yeah . You just answered the question. So we are not supposed to discuss the "father of Western Christianity's" views on one of the core issues of Western Christianity. Jon. You outdo yourself every time.

Click to expand...

Exactly right....not on this thread.

Discuss YOUR views. This thread is about differing views we hold.

You can account for your beliefs, Augustine cannot. All we would get would be what you believe Augustine meant by specific quotes. Who cares what you believe a 4th century Catholic priest thought?

DaveXR650 said:

Well.....Yeah . You just answered the question. So we are not supposed to discuss the "father of Western Christianity's" views on one of the core issues of Western Christianity. Jon. You outdo yourself every time.

Click to expand...

I started an Augustine thread for you. It actually could be a good resource to collect his writings on the atonement for those wanting to study him.

DaveXR650 said:

I appreciate your honesty here. And in the post above. That's really what I was wondering. I at least now understand where you are coming from. And from your answer I figure you either haven't discussed this with your pastor at the Baptist church or am I wrong in that. I just can't find any group of people who hate penal substitution who are not problematic in a host of other areas.

Click to expand...

Thank you.
I have not discussed this in depth with my pastor, but I have not had the opportunity to do so.
And I would be the opposite of you, in that I have not found people who hold to PSA who are not problematic in other areas. Or maybe I shouldn't say "problematic", but rather holding wrong views of God.

JonC said:

I would traditional anabaptist, but they hold the same view.

The Eastern Orthodox Church did not hold that doctrine first (they did not exist for the first several centuries of Christianity). But they did well in maintaining the early teachings. I suspect this is because it was not as localized as the Roman Catholic Church.

I disagree with the Latin side on the Atonement from the 10th century forward (from Anselm to Aquinas and finally Penal Substitution). The basis of each always shifted to that immediate worldview (from honor to justice as merit to legal justice).

Click to expand...

Yes, you said about the EOC what I was trying to say.

I also prefer the early Anabaptist and Quaker view of the atonement.

JonC said:

Exactly right....not on this thread.

Discuss YOUR views. This thread is about differing views we hold.

You can account for your beliefs, Augustine cannot.

Click to expand...

I do not have a high enough opinion of my views to not feel the need to at least use support from well known sources. And I don't have a high enough opinion of your opinion without any support from anything except your own private interpretation to be worth discussing. So you guys have at it.

easternstar said:

I have not discussed this in depth with my pastor, but I have not had the opportunity to do so.
And I would be the opposite of you, in that I have not found people who hold to PSA who are not problematic in other areas. Or maybe I shouldn't say "problematic", but rather holding wrong views of God.

Click to expand...

Thanks, that would at least let someone know where you are coming from.

DaveXR650 said:

I do not have a high enough opinion of my views to not feel the need to at least use support from well known sources. And I don't have a high enough opinion of your opinion without any support from anything except your own private interpretation to be worth discussing. So you guys have at it.

Click to expand...

Good. We should not have a high opinion of our opinions. We lean on God's words.

The Bible is a well known source.

I do not have private interpretations. Mine are pretty well known.

You need to study Scripture and form a conclusion. Then make sure your conclusion is not in isolation.

That is what I did. It is why I can explain how I get to my views as well as verify it is not in isolation.

If you just hold another person's belief you cannot call truly call it yours (it is borrowed).

Like me you can find theologians who agree with your conclusions, but unlike me you only have the conclusions (not the actual belief...you can't get from the Bible to your conclusions and are forced only to read your conclusions into Scripture).

BUT....I did give you some of Augustine's writings on the Atonement since you say he holds your position. His explanation may help you understand your position better.

And, as you share his view we have much more in common than I thought. Still not fond of the mouse trap thing.

DaveXR650 said:

I do not have a high enough opinion of my views to not feel the need to at least use support from well known sources. And I don't have a high enough opinion of your opinion without any support from anything except your own private interpretation to be worth discussing. So you guys have at it.

Click to expand...

Oh, I have lots more than my own private interpretation. But having discussed this in depth and at length on other forums over the years, and to the point of the opposition getting nasty, I am just weary of it actually. So I'm just posting the facts, and people can take it or leave it.

I don't mean to come off as arrogant or sound like a know-it-all. I'm not. I've questioned every belief I've held and doubted more than a few. But if there's one I'm certain about, it's the atonement, and that's based on scripture, the early church, subsequent church history, and Jesus Christ Himself and His words.