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Do We Need to Defend the Bible?

John of Japan

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, we don't. There is nothing the Word of God that commands us to defend it. It is God's Word. He can defend His own Word.

Instead, what we have are metaphors that say we are to attack with the Bible. It is a sword (Heb. 4:12, Eph. 6:17). You don't defend a sword, putting it in a nice display and clobbering anyone who tries to take it. You pick it up and go out and attack the enemy with it!

Jer. 23:29, "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" You don't defend a fire or a hammer. You burn stuff up and you break things or mend things with it.

So, any KJV-Only advocate who reads this: stop defending the KJV, and go out and stab a sinner with it!
 
Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Active Member
John of Japan said:
No, we don't. There is nothing the Word of God that commands us to defend it. It is God's Word. He can defend His own Word.

Instead, what we have are metaphors that say we are to attack with the Bible. It is a sword (Heb. 4:12, Eph. 6:17). You don't defend a sword, putting it in a nice display and clobbering anyone who tries to take it. You pick it up and go out and attack the enemy with it!

Jer. 23:29, "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" You don't defend a fire or a hammer. You burn stuff up and you break things or mend things with it.

So, any KJV-Only advocate who reads this: stop defending the KJV, and go out and stab a sinner with it!
Click to expand...
I think I understand your zeal, but may I gently respond?

You may dislike the word “defend”, but we may need to explain why we believe the Bible or why we prefer a certain version. But I don’t think we should get in bitter heated debates. I also don’t think anyone can be argued into faith. We can provide reasons for our faith, not trusting in logic to win their hearts, but hoping to disrupt their confidence in mistaken thinking.

We are never told to stab any sinners with any kind of weapon. Even stabbing a sinner with the sword of the Spirit, God’s Word, sounds violent and unkind. Perhaps using the sword of the Spirit to lovingly surgically remove sin would be a nicer way to put it.

Jesus said, “Peter, put away thy sword!” when Peter cut off the ear (aiming for the neck?) of the servant accompanying those who arrested Jesus.

To my pacifist orientation, if we cannot use lethal weapons to defend Jesus, then I, like the first century church historically, cannot use lethal weapons to defend anyone or anything. As far as protecting my wife, I would hope that the shield of faith would suffice. However, I admit I would be tempted to use violent and even deadly means to safeguard my wife if she was physically attacked. I’m not comfortable even imagining such a scene.

Even sayings like “that’s killer!” and “kill them with kindness” repulse me.

My high school friend Kent Hovind had a Whack an Atheist weekly video series for a while in 2020.

Then we recall the bloody ungodly Crusades where fake churchians slaughtered Jews and Muslims in worldly armed conflict.

I Timothy 2:24,25,26

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 
B

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Ascetic X said:
I think I understand your zeal, but may I gently respond?

You may dislike the word “defend”, but we may need to explain why we believe the Bible or why we prefer a certain version. But I don’t think we should get in bitter heated debates. I also don’t think anyone can be argued into faith. We can provide reasons for our faith, not trusting in logic to win their hearts, but hoping to disrupt their confidence in mistaken thinking.

We are never told to stab any sinners with any kind of weapon. Even stabbing a sinner with the sword of the Spirit, God’s Word, sounds violent and unkind. Perhaps using the sword of the Spirit to lovingly surgically remove sin would be a nicer way to put it.

Jesus said, “Peter, put away thy sword!” when Peter cut off the ear (aiming for the neck?) of the servant accompanying those who arrested Jesus.

To my pacifist orientation, if we cannot use lethal weapons to defend Jesus, then I, like the first century church historically, cannot use lethal weapons to defend anyone or anything. As far as protecting my wife, I would hope that the shield of faith would suffice. However, I admit I would be tempted to use violent and even deadly means to safeguard my wife if she was physically attacked. I’m not comfortable even imagining such a scene.

Even sayings like “that’s killer!” and “kill them with kindness” repulse me.

My high school friend Kent Hovind had a Whack an Atheist weekly video series for a while in 2020.

Then we recall the bloody ungodly Crusades where fake churchians slaughtered Jews and Muslims in worldly armed conflict.

I Timothy 2:24,25,26

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Click to expand...
Metaphorically, the idea is that you use the Sword offensively and not defensively.
Not surprisingly, offensive use of God’s Word may be seen as offensive.

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1 Peter 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

But Jesus was not metaphorical when the zeal of His house brought Him to physically drive out wickedness from the Temple with a whip.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We were not given Scripture as a pillow to make us comfortable. (Even if we would still be having pillow fights)
There is legitimate use of the Word as a sword. It is biblical.
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ben1445 said:
Metaphorically, the idea is that you use the Sword offensively and not defensively.
Not surprisingly, offensive use of God’s Word may be seen as offensive.
Click to expand...

Matthew Chapter 7

6​

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you
 
John of Japan

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Here is my pamphlet on "A Biblical Philosophy of Self Defenses."
 

Attachments

  • Christian Philosophy of Self Defense 2013.pdf
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John of Japan

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ascetic X said:
I think I understand your zeal, but may I gently respond?
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting.
Ascetic X said:
You may dislike the word “defend”, but we may need to explain why we believe the Bible or why we prefer a certain version. But I don’t think we should get in bitter heated debates. I also don’t think anyone can be argued into faith. We can provide reasons for our faith, not trusting in logic to win their hearts, but hoping to disrupt their confidence in mistaken thinking.

We are never told to stab any sinners with any kind of weapon. Even stabbing a sinner with the sword of the Spirit, God’s Word, sounds violent and unkind. Perhaps using the sword of the Spirit to lovingly surgically remove sin would be a nicer way to put it.
Click to expand...
The term "sword of the Spirit" is a metaphor. Are you objecting to Biblical metaphors simply because they sound violent to you?

When we use the sword of the Spirit in spiritual warfare it does not mean to harm people. It is not me but the Holy Spirit who applies the Word of God to the people we give the Word to. Surely you understand that by "stab a sinner" I meant give them the Gospel so the Holy Spirit can work in their hearts and save them!!! That is the greatest good I can do for anyone, and it is not harm any more than the surgeon's scalpel is harmful.
Ascetic X said:
Jesus said, “Peter, put away thy sword!” when Peter cut off the ear (aiming for the neck?) of the servant accompanying those who arrested Jesus.
Click to expand...
Irrelevant.
Ascetic X said:
To my pacifist orientation, if we cannot use lethal weapons to defend Jesus, then I, like the first century church historically, cannot use lethal weapons to defend anyone or anything. As far as protecting my wife, I would hope that the shield of faith would suffice. However, I admit I would be tempted to use violent and even deadly means to safeguard my wife if she was physically attacked. I’m not comfortable even imagining such a scene.
Click to expand...
I would immediately defend my wife if she were attacked, and I have Biblical support for that. See the PDF of my published pamphlet in the previous post, "A Christian Philosophy of Self Defense." Please read it with an open mind, comparing Scripture with Scripture. Even Jesus used physical violence to defend His Father's house, the temple, when it was being invaded by thieves.

There is theological basis for this position also. Christ is the groom and the Church is the Bride. We are to love our wives as Christ loves the Church (Eph. 5:25). Christ loves the Church, His Bride, so much that He died for it, and will deliver it before the Tribulation Period with the Rapture.

Ascetic X said:
Even sayings like “that’s killer!” and “kill them with kindness” repulse me.
Click to expand...

Irrelevant.
Ascetic X said:
My high school friend Kent Hovind had a Whack an Atheist weekly video series for a while in 2020.
Click to expand...
Irrelevant.
Ascetic X said:
Then we recall the bloody ungodly Crusades where fake churchians slaughtered Jews and Muslims in worldly armed conflict.
Click to expand...
Are you seriously comparing what this Baptist wrote here about spiritual warfare with the evil crusades of the Catholics in which millions of people were physically killed???
Ascetic X said:
I Timothy 2:24,25,26

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Click to expand...
As a Bible college professor, I do my best to obey this. When a student disagrees with me, I use questions to try to gently guide him to the truth of the given subject.
 
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Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Active Member
John of Japan said:
Thanks for posting.

The term "sword of the Spirit" is a metaphor. Are you objecting to Biblical metaphors simply because they sound violent to you?
Click to expand...
No, I do not object to Biblical metaphors. We have the sharp sword of the Spirit for when “we struggle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Ephesians 6:12

In Roman warfare, the sword was a short, double-edged weapon used for close combat. Sword of the Spirit is thus symbolizing the proximity of demonic attacks and the reliable, invincible precision and effectiveness of God's Word. The valiant person of the Holy Spirit empowers believers to wield this sword adroitly and triumphantly, enabling us to cut through spiritual deception and slice into shreds all sinful temptation.

John of Japan said:
When we use the sword of the Spirit in spiritual warfare it does not mean to harm people. It is not me but the Holy Spirit who applies the Word of God to the people we give the Word to. Surely you understand that by "stab a sinner" I meant give them the Gospel so the Holy Spirit can work in their hearts and save them!!! That is the greatest good I can do for anyone, and it is not harm any more than the surgeon's scalpel is harmful.
Click to expand...
I apologize for implying that you meant for us to be brutal toward the unsaved, which is entirely preposterous. I guess I was triggered by the “stab a sinner” phrase, reminiscent of Kent Hovind’s “Whack an Atheist” phrase.

An arrest warrant dated July 19, 2021 alleged that the Rev. Kent Hovind, known as “Dr. Dino,” intentionally threw his estranged wife, Cindi Lincoln, to the ground, causing bodily harm. Kent was a good friend of mine in high school. So you can see how I developed my sensitivity to such things.

It is similar to how we are told not to use the Bible as a club to clobber other people. We may be firm and confrontational when contending for the faith, but I have to watch out that I don’t become inflammatory or overbearing.

I think Ken Ham and Charlie Kirk are good examples of wielding the sword of the Spirit.

I feel confident that you are a wonderful Bible college professor. I wish my life had gone in that direction, brother!
 
John of Japan

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ascetic X said:
No, I do not object to Biblical metaphors. We have the sharp sword of the Spirit for when “we struggle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Ephesians 6:12

In Roman warfare, the sword was a short, double-edged weapon used for close combat. Sword of the Spirit is thus symbolizing the proximity of demonic attacks and the reliable, invincible precision and effectiveness of God's Word. The valiant person of the Holy Spirit empowers believers to wield this sword adroitly and triumphantly, enabling us to cut through spiritual deception and slice into shreds all sinful temptation.
Click to expand...
Very good. We agree, then. The use of a violent metaphor in Scripture is not physical.
Ascetic X said:
I apologize for implying that you meant for us to be brutal toward the unsaved, which is entirely preposterous. I guess I was triggered by the “stab a sinner” phrase, reminiscent of Kent Hovind’s “Whack an Atheist” phrase.

An arrest warrant dated July 19, 2021 alleged that the Rev. Kent Hovind, known as “Dr. Dino,” intentionally threw his estranged wife, Cindi Lincoln, to the ground, causing bodily harm. Kent was a good friend of mine in high school. So you can see how I developed my sensitivity to such things.
Click to expand...
Yes, I can tell how you were triggered. But please know that whatever Hovind did to his wife or any other sins he committed. as absolutely nothing to do with me. I've never even met him. My wife and I are very close, and I have never physically harmed or attacked her, nor would I.

I know how you feel. I became estranged from the best man at my wedding years after. Long story.
Ascetic X said:
It is similar to how we are told not to use the Bible as a club to clobber other people. We may be firm and confrontational when contending for the faith, but I have to watch out that I don’t become inflammatory or overbearing.

I think Ken Ham and Charlie Kirk are good examples of wielding the sword of the Spirit.
Click to expand...
Amen!
Ascetic X said:
I feel confident that you are a wonderful Bible college professor. I wish my life had gone in that direction, brother!
Click to expand...
God has been very good to me. I am privileged to have served God in many different ways. After our years in Japan, I was overjoyed to be able to teach here. (I had taught in a Bible school in Japan as well as other ministries there.) Best of all, our only son got his PhD and was looking for a place to teach when I was hired eleven years ago. They immediately flew him up to show him the school, and hired us both. Best of all, our offices are next to each other, and we even team teach two classes! :)
 
Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Active Member
John of Japan said:
God has been very good to me. I am privileged to have served God in many different ways. After our years in Japan, I was overjoyed to be able to teach here. (I had taught in a Bible school in Japan as well as other ministries there.) Best of all, our only son got his PhD and was looking for a place to teach when I was hired eleven years ago. They immediately flew him up to show him the school, and hired us both. Best of all, our offices are next to each other, and we even team teach two classes! :)
Click to expand...
That is a fantastic story!

When I was in high school, my gorgeous cousin Vicky spent the summer in my parents home. She was a year younger. I was so proud when my friends saw us together. My dad gave me $100 to show her a good time, which was a lot of money in those days. Not having a sister, she was the first female I got close to and I was ecstatic.

She stayed with us because her dad, my uncle, was preparing a new home for his family in Japan, where he was transferred in his job. When she joined her dad and mom in Japan, we drifted apart. But Japan has held a special place in my heart ever since. I love their cuisine and I respect a lot of Buddha’s teachings. I hear that evangelism is especially challenging in Japan.
 
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