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The sheep and the goats?

J

JD731

Well-Known Member
David Lamb said:
Jesus mentions both "sheep" and "goats" only in these two verses:

Mt 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides [his] sheep from the goats.
Mt 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Notice the context - He is talking about "All nations," not just the Jewish nation.
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Work with me here please.

All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Do you think the structure of this sentence demands that nations is the antecedent of the pronoun "them" or do you think individual sheep and goats from all the nations gathered into two piles is the intended meaning of the author?

And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Feel free to explain your logic. I do not mind long comments if they are instructive.
 
David Lamb

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
JD731 said:
Work with me here please.

All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Do you think the structure of this sentence demands that nations is the antecedent of the pronoun "them" or do you think individual sheep and goats from all the nations gathered into two piles is the intended meaning of the author?

And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Feel free to explain your logic. I do not mind long comments if they are instructive.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I am not sure what you mean (which is more likely my fault, not yours). All I meant was that you had claimed that the context of the mention of sheep and goats was in reference only to Jews, but Jesus seems to have used the phrase in the context of all nations.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JD731 said:
No, I have not failed to address this Olivet Discourse. It is a prophecy that takes place on Wednesday of the week when Jesus Christ is crucified by his own nation, Judah. This is not a prophecy about you or me and it is improper and confusing for you to ignore the context. It is in the context that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." This portion of scripture is not given to you and me for the purpose of reproof or correction (unless you misapply it) but for doctrine and instruction in righteousness.

This discourse instructs the world who reads it and believes it what is going to happen in light of the kingdom of Jesus Christ during the time of Israel's national and political rejection of Jesus Christ and it deals with the time frame between the destruction of Herod's Temple, that he had just departed for the final time, and his second coming to the earth as King over Israel and all nations, thus fulfilling the Davidic covenant that OT scholars would know about. He has the criteria for entrance of the nations in that Kingdom that he is ready to inaugurate. There are saved nations.

Re 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it (New Jerusalem, a satellite city): and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

There are two reasons why Jesus gave this discourse without any mention of the church and the two thousand years is because it had not been determined by Israel at this time what would be the conditions of these years. There was a probation time of 40 years after the cross for their repentance, which they did not do. History would have unfolded differently if they had repented. Secondly, since they did not repent and they had already been separated from their God through unbelief in Jesus Christ, rendering them dead nationally, the dispersion out of their land was reckoned as a burial of a dead nation into the graveyard of the nations. (Read Ez 36-37 for details of their national resurrection and you will be encouraged).

So, here is the rub. There is no history to record for a dead man who is buried. His presence is not on the earth. In this manner Israel has had no history on the earth because he was not on the earth and there was nothing to record about him. In like manner Jesus Christ was not on the earth in his Kingly presence and his kingdom was spiritual only and non political. His subjects in this expression of the kingdom was as servants.

The Olivet Discourse is concerned with the physical kingdom only.

Ho 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

I hope you will be enlightened by this post. It is my goal. The history of Israel and the history of the church are different in time and scope.
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No, I do not think I was "enlightened" by your post. First you stated you did not fail to address the Olivet Discourse. I did not say you did. I said you failed to address my explanation. Since you have no interest in actually discussing why the sheep are born anew believers, siblings of Christ, rather than nations, it is pointless to continue.
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
David Lamb said:
Sorry, but I am not sure what you mean (which is more likely my fault, not yours). All I meant was that you had claimed that the context of the mention of sheep and goats was in reference only to Jews, but Jesus seems to have used the phrase in the context of all nations.
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Please quote me saying that because I need to fix that. I did say that Paul wrote 13 letters to the church and never mentioned goats and only mentioned sheep in the context of the Jews one time. The reason for that is the fact that he is the apostle to the gentiles and his epistles will be the instructions for the church of Jesus Christ because the collective church will take on a gentile character during the time of of Israel's national death and burial in the nations. God simply considers Jews as gentiles when they are separated from their land and cut off from their covenants. We have precedent for that truth in the 10 northern tribes nation dispersion from their land in 722 BC the Assyrians as told us by the prophet Hosea. The Jews are considered as gentiles after 70 AD until their national resurrection, which, using the light I now have, took place in 1948. Israel is resurrected but yet unsaved. The Olivet Discourse is the prophecy that describes the time and conditions under which Israel will be saved and the events of those days going forward. Jesus is dealing with Jewish prophecy, not church prophecy.

You must understand that the church of Jesus Christ and Israel are two separate entities with different histories and prophecies. I said separate, not different in the sense both are of the same kingdom. It is like the soul and body of man. One entity with both body and soul. One physical and one spiritual and not with the same function and yet they can be separated and are separated at death. They are made alive unto God when he puts his Spirit in the body and they have everlasting life and will never die. The and it's kingdom doctrine paints this picture so we may see.

We should all ask God for light and then bow the knee to it when he gives it.
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
Van said:
No, I do not think I was "enlightened" by your post. First you stated you did not fail to address the Olivet Discourse. I did not say you did. I said you failed to address my explanation. Since you have no interest in actually discussing why the sheep are born anew believers, siblings of Christ, rather than nations, it is pointless to continue.
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Au contraire! I have a great deal of interest in addressing the sheep and goats in the Olivet Discourse and accept the definition in the text. They are nations, not individuals. I will likely have more to say about it. Stay tuned if you are interested.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

In Matthew 25: 31-46 Jesus teaches about the end of the age of grace. He will begin is Millennial reign, sitting on His thrown.

Some have read this passage and conclude, mistakenly in my opinion, that Christ's division will be based on works.

But I believe "giving to Christ what He needed" refers to giving Christ, by those physically living at that time, trust, love and commitment.

In verse 40 we see that the sheep are "brothers" [siblings] of Christ, thus those having been born anew as children of God.

And on the other left side, the goats are described as not giving Christ what He needed. Perhaps they had never heard the gospel because it was not presented or because like Soil #1, they had lost their ability to understand the spiritual milk of the gospel. And of course, the many who had sought the narrow door. but never finding it, would have failed to fully embrace the gospel, like Soil #2 or #3 of Matthew 13. Their love for and commitment to Christ was not sufficient, such that Christ would or had become the overriding priority of their lives.

The key take away here, as in Matthew 7:21-23 is to do the "will" of the Father, which John presents with crystal clarity:

“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in [into] Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” [John 6:40 NASB]

 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
“And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; [Matthew 25:32 NASB]

Some mistakenly try to define the Greek word translated "nations" above as peoples within national borders, but that view does not stand up to study. The word refers to a group, or to groups of peoples, defined by a common nature or genus. Here, obviously the two "nations" are "born anew believers, children of God, and non-believers, children of wrath.

Thus a more enlightened translation would be "And all the peoples will be gathered before Him....
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
David Lamb said:
Certainly. You wrote: "There are NO sheep and goats metaphor in these times we are living in now where the context shows it to be strictly Jewish."
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Thanks David. I will fix that so it will be more easily understood. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. The apostolic band numbering 12 apostles who were chosen to minister to Israel, the people, along with Jesus did not change. They continued after the resurrection to be called to minister to the offspring of Abraham through Jacob, called the circumcision, ministering through the apostolic era that ended in 70 AD with the end of the national identity and presence in the Holy Land. I will need to post this proof because you probably will not read it if I don't.

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The idea here is that both these teams would convert the secular and the religious of Israel during this 40 year probation period during which time the church would be formed and Jesus Christ would come and establish his kingdom over Israel and the nations (read Heb 3 here). Israel did not repent and instead of their King coming, a gentile king came to render judgement.

This is called by me, a transition. There was no more an Israel in a land. They were scattered among the gentiles and was under gentile governments wherever they were for the next 2000 years. God did not deal with them the same way, he dealt with them the way he dealt with gentiles. He did not deal with the gentiles under the promises of the OT because those promises were mostly to and about this nation and people Israel. He dealt with gentiles one on one. He dealt with them not by previous promises but by grace. The gentiles would not have understood the metaphors of Israel that had been established under that economy. Paul did not use most of those metaphors in his preaching to gentiles. He used few metaphors but he used great plainness of speech.

You can see this in real time and compare if you really want to know. Paul's first recorded sermon in the book of Acts was in Acts 13 when he preached the gospel to Jews. He quoted OT scriptures to them and applied them to the fulfilment through Jesus Christ. Compare a sermon he preached to a 100% gentile crowd in Acts 17 in Athens Greece. There he proclaimed God in heaven as their creator and he denounced their superstitious worship of things that are no gods and preached Jesus Christ to them along with a warning that they had only so much time to repent.

So, when I said that Paul did not use sheep and goat metaphors I offered proof by the absence of those metaphors in his letters to gentiles that anyone can check.

I will end this explanation by quoting what Paul said about his ministry to gentiles.

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people (Israel).
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people (of Israel).
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise (from the right hand of the Father) to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

So gentiles who did not have any instruction from God previously needed what Paul had to give.

15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

So here is the deal, David. I think few posters on the forum can biblically define the church of Jesus Christ because of their religion. Because of this it is impossible for them to read the mind of God with understanding.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
JD731 said:
Sheep and goats are contextually Israel metaphors, not church metaphors. The church is like a woman, a bride, a wife, a gentile.
Click to expand...
The Sheep and Goats narrative is that of being the saved and lost.
Matthew 25:31-46. Revelation 20:11-15.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
JD731 said:
Who being saved and lost? When? You will not explain your logic and reasoning?
Click to expand...
The saved are those through faith alone, in Christ alone, by God's grace alone. . . .
And what the lost reject.
 
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J

JD731

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
The saved are those through faith alone, in Christ alone, by God's grace alone. . . .
And what the lost reject.
Click to expand...
A one sentence exposition of the whole Bible is not sufficient for sound doctrine. Surely the mind of God is more complex than that, no?
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
JD731 said:
A one sentence exposition of the whole Bible is not sufficient for sound doctrine. Surely the mind of God is more complex than that, no?
Click to expand...
John 3:3, . . . Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Matthew 7:21-23, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Are "the sheep" of the pasture, of the land, of the flock? You bet.

Are"the sheep of the flock scattered when the Shepherd is struck down? You bet.

Are "the sheep" like sheep without a shepherd? Nope

The sheep separated and put on our Lord's right are born anew, they belong the Him.

The lost are separated like goats and put on His left, and they go into eternal punishment.
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
John 3:3, . . . Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Matthew 7:21-23, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Click to expand...
I am not sure what issue you have with my post. I would not disagree in the least of the literal reading of those verses, but what do they have to do the the literal reading of Jesus Christ judging the literal nations according as to how they treated Israel during the great tribulation, which I have proven often is the prophesied "day of the LORD" judgement in old and new testaments. The text says these are nations, not individuals.

Guys, when Jesus Christ the Messiah came as a man to Israel and they rejected and crucified him, and he later died nationally and was buried, it did not mean every individual in the nation died. There was a remnant of believers in Jesus in those days who were saved. They were not condemned though they were few in number.

I am convinced that some of you rarely read the scriptures. You should know that Jesus came as the king of the Jews to Judah and everyone associated with him announced his kingdom was at hand. He preached it for 3+ years to the nation of Judah. When he ended his ministry not one single person in Israel understood and believed that he had to die in order to establish his kingdom because of it's character. He had not preached that but it was a matter of OT prophecy and they should have known that about their Messiah. The citizens must be chosen first and they must be cleansed of their sins. Pilate himself and all the Romans knew he claimed to be the king of the Jews and they wrote it on the banner and nailed it over his head on the cross. It said, this is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews. What he did not come for was for his nation to put him to death, he called on them to repent and to believe the good news that he has come to redeem them by his own blood.

The sad truth is that the generation who was called on to receive their King was the one who rejected him and is responsible for millions of deaths of Jews and them going to hell in the centuries following. There is no excuse for men who claim they are taught of God not to understand the kingdom of God. It is a major theme throughout the whole Bible into eternity.

Those two verses you quoted from Matthew 7 are from the sermon on the mount. It is the constitution of the kingdom and those men in "that day" are those Jews who show up at the judgement of Israel who are left alive and are condemned because they did not follow Jesus during the day of the Lord judgement that takes place after he returns. They were not born again. and they worked iniquity.

My signature here is "believe the words, and honor the context" Do not change the word nations to individuals. It will not work.
 
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V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
“And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; [Matthew 25:32 NASB]

Some mistakenly try to define the Greek word translated "nations" above as peoples within national borders, but that view does not stand up to study. The word refers to a group, or to groups of peoples, defined by a common nature or genus. Here, obviously the two "nations" are "born anew believers, children of God, and non-believers, children of wrath.

Thus a more enlightened translation would be "And all the peoples will be gathered before Him....
 
David Lamb

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
JD731 said:
Thanks David. I will fix that so it will be more easily understood. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. The apostolic band numbering 12 apostles who were chosen to minister to Israel, the people, along with Jesus did not change. They continued after the resurrection to be called to minister to the offspring of Abraham through Jacob, called the circumcision, ministering through the apostolic era that ended in 70 AD with the end of the national identity and presence in the Holy Land. I will need to post this proof because you probably will not read it if I don't.

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The idea here is that both these teams would convert the secular and the religious of Israel during this 40 year probation period during which time the church would be formed and Jesus Christ would come and establish his kingdom over Israel and the nations (read Heb 3 here). Israel did not repent and instead of their King coming, a gentile king came to render judgement.

This is called by me, a transition. There was no more an Israel in a land. They were scattered among the gentiles and was under gentile governments wherever they were for the next 2000 years. God did not deal with them the same way, he dealt with them the way he dealt with gentiles. He did not deal with the gentiles under the promises of the OT because those promises were mostly to and about this nation and people Israel. He dealt with gentiles one on one. He dealt with them not by previous promises but by grace. The gentiles would not have understood the metaphors of Israel that had been established under that economy. Paul did not use most of those metaphors in his preaching to gentiles. He used few metaphors but he used great plainness of speech.

You can see this in real time and compare if you really want to know. Paul's first recorded sermon in the book of Acts was in Acts 13 when he preached the gospel to Jews. He quoted OT scriptures to them and applied them to the fulfilment through Jesus Christ. Compare a sermon he preached to a 100% gentile crowd in Acts 17 in Athens Greece. There he proclaimed God in heaven as their creator and he denounced their superstitious worship of things that are no gods and preached Jesus Christ to them along with a warning that they had only so much time to repent.

So, when I said that Paul did not use sheep and goat metaphors I offered proof by the absence of those metaphors in his letters to gentiles that anyone can check.

I will end this explanation by quoting what Paul said about his ministry to gentiles.

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people (Israel).
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people (of Israel).
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise (from the right hand of the Father) to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

So gentiles who did not have any instruction from God previously needed what Paul had to give.

15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

So here is the deal, David. I think few posters on the forum can biblically define the church of Jesus Christ because of their religion. Because of this it is impossible for them to read the mind of God with understanding.
Click to expand...
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. I do agree that Paul doesn't use the sheep and goats metaphor in Acts or in his letters - I never suggested that he did. As I said before, the only place where sheep and goats are mentioned together in the New Testament is in Matthew's gospel. Are you saying that Matthew's gospel is not for Gentiles?
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
David Lamb said:
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. I do agree that Paul doesn't use the sheep and goats metaphor in Acts or in his letters - I never suggested that he did. As I said before, the only place where sheep and goats are mentioned together in the New Testament is in Matthew's gospel. Are you saying that Matthew's gospel is not for Gentiles?
Click to expand...
David, have you ever read Matthew's gospel? I am not trying to insult you but have you ever considered what it says. If you believe the words of the gospel of Matthew the question would be answered. Consider what the apostle Paul wrote to the Galatians who were having problems with the law.

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
For what purpose?
5 To redeem them that were under the law, (why?) that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Joshua 9:9
And they said unto him, From a very far country thy servants are come because of the name of the Lord thy God: for we have heard the fame of him, and all that he did in Egypt, (Reminds me of the kings in Luke 2 who came from the east to Bethlehem to worship him)

Isaiah 66:19
And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Jesus was glorified when he rose from the dead.

So, one of the 4 major reasons for the nation and people of Israel is for God to reveal his glory and power and person to the nations and to get fame through them as he worked out his redemption through them. The signs and miracles and prophesy through Israel in the OT made him well known among the nations and set him above all other gods that men worship.

So, I am going to ask our Lord Jesus to answer a gentile and at the same time answer your question.

Mt 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Here is Jesus ministering in the flesh to a certain nation, his own, under the economy of the law of Moses and preaching what he calls the gospel of the kingdom and directing his preachers to go only to those of the nation Israel and to preach the same gospel of kingdom. Do you believe the gospel they preached to Israel can get you saved today?

I hope you will answer this question.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Are "the sheep" of the pasture, of the land, of the flock? You bet.

Are"the sheep of the flock scattered when the Shepherd is struck down? You bet.

Are "the sheep" like sheep without a shepherd? Nope

The sheep separated and put on our Lord's right are born anew, they belong the Him.

The lost are separated like goats and put on His left, and they go into eternal punishment.

Ezekiel 34:31 equates "My sheep" with the phrase "the sheep of My pasture."

Thus, in Matthew 25:40 scripture teaches that "the sheep" are siblings of Christ, born anew as children of God, and therefore they are "the sheep of His pasture" they belong to Him.

Therefore the "Peoples" are divided into two groups, the born anew believers are the sheep, and the non-believers are the goats. That is the dividing line, not national land borders!
 
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