Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
They are the same. Faith in Rom 5:1 is Christ
Therefore being justified by Christ, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
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Thoughts on Justification
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
Therefore being justified by Christ, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
This is a valid point but did not the OP address this?
Where we have to be careful is exactly what we mean by this. To say a gift has to be received to be of any use to someone is I think, OK. And to say faith is the actual linking to salvation or the hand reaching out so to speak is fine. But to say on one hand that one's faith is what God "looks for" in the sense that it changes his mind and makes Him decide to save you could lead to the charge that you are making it a work or a merit. On the other hand, in an attempt to honor Christ as providing all meritorious reasons for our justification, if you make faith so independent of the one exercising it that you no longer have anything to say to people regarding what they must do to be saved - then you confuse people and disobey scripture.
Some Calvinists do this because they take the theology and apply the overall truth without regard to what is happening in the mind of the person hearing the gospel. The fact is, from your personal standpoint, you hear the gospel and do decide for Christ. It's also quite possible that this was a result of the work of the Holy Spirit, and the case for this being a response to regeneration is possible. There is a balance, and I can say that the church I went to that was very Calvinistic, did indeed believe in witnessing and calling on everyone to repent and believe. They are Reformed Baptist. The church I am at now is less reformed but not by much and they also believe that nothing will happen to anyone as far as salvation is concerned without the Holy Spirit's prior work.
What we see are the limits of theology. We are talking about God, who is infinite, sovereign, and is working things out according to his will. We are finite, always in the process of coming to and reacting to each moment in time. To learn something and then make a decision is how we do things and it is wrong to deny this. That does not mean that God must operate the same way.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yes it is His faith/faithfulness that saves the elect. And the world is saved by way of all the elect being saved.
Christ Justifies the elect because Christ died for their sins, and they because of that believe.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I was just addressing comments by @percho. But yes the OP did address his concerns but he seems to have missed that.
We see that God has provide the means for us to know Him but we still have to respond to those various means.
That response is either rejection of or faith in Him. The reason that God will save a person is because of their faith so it is logical to say He looks for that faith and responds to it by saving them just as He responds to their rejection of Him by condemning them.
God being omniscient foreknows all that will happen, so no surprises. He knows all those that will freely trust in Him just as He knows all those that will freely reject Him but does not cause them to do so.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
BF you are just parroting your standard calvinist misunderstanding of the word of God.
I have pointed this out to you many times and you still ignore what the bible says,
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The elect are made righteous by His faithful obedience Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
If one is made righteous, thats salvation. A righteous man is saved Matt 13 43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
According to Rom 5:19 how did they become righteous?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;
Rom_4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Gal_3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jas_2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
According to the word of God a person is reckoned as righteous because they believe. You seem to have a problem grasp that fact BF.
Paul was going from Jerusalem to Damascus in un-belief.
Did Paul change his own mind from un-belief unto belief or did God call him out of un-belief unto belief by baptizing him with the Spirit of Truth?
Did Paul choose Jesus or was Paul a chosen vessel?
I believe God choose Paul to be of the faith of God for his purpose.
I believe God choose Abraham to be of the faith of God for his purpose.
God called Abraham unto belief declaring him just.
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18 God works through whom God calls. Not through who choses God.
Did Paul change his own mind from un-belief unto belief or did God call him out of un-belief unto belief by baptizing him with the Spirit of Truth?
Did Paul choose Jesus or was Paul a chosen vessel?
I believe God choose Paul to be of the faith of God for his purpose.
I believe God choose Abraham to be of the faith of God for his purpose.
God called Abraham unto belief declaring him just.
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18 God works through whom God calls. Not through who choses God.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
According to Rom 5:19 how did they become righteous?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
If Paul or Abraham did not have the ability to change their minds then how did it happen?If you say God caused it then you have to answer why so many reject Him since we know that He desires all to be saved.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Through faith.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
False Faith isnt mentioned in Rom 5:19
Actually, no. According to Titus 3:4-7, the prime cause of our justification is God's kindness and love (v.4) and His mercy (v.5). In v.7, we are justified 'by His grace,' that is, by His undeserved favour. Faith is not mentioned at all in that particular segment of Scripture, though in fairness, nor is the cross, save perhaps obliquely in v.6. God's kindness and love, grace and mercy are the first reasons God justifies us.
Eph. 2:6. 'But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved.)'
The immediate cause of our justification is the life of sinless obedience and propitiatory suffering and death of our Lord (2 Cor. 5:21). By these two things we are seen as perfectly righteous by God as Judge and pronounced as such.
Faith is that which connects us to God. J. Gresham Machin, in his book, What is Faith? describes it as being like the cable that connects the light switch to the lamp. The power of God is transmitted to us, giving us faith and repentance. When we see ourselves as wicked sinners, despair of our own righteousness, and place our faith in the blood and righteousness of the Saviour, our faith is credited to us for righteousness.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Are the elect Justified b4 God by Christs obedience before they place their faith in the blood and righteousness of their Saviour ?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
This seems to be the key. And it is the answer to the question in the OP about the difference between justification and simple bare forgiveness.
That I think is more important than the dispute over the application of justification and how one perceives a person coming to know and trust in Christ. I hope this doesn't get immediately sidetracked into that area.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Faith is is the bible BF.
It seems you base your religion on out of context verses.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The question is still why does God justify us? The answer is because we believe.
Martin you of all people should know that we are saved by grace through faith Eph 2:8
Paul could not have said it any clearer
Act 16:30 ... “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Act 16:31 ... “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,...
Or you could read Rom 10:9-10, Rom 5:1-2, Rom 9:30, Gal 3:8, Gal 3:22. I could go on but I am sure you get the picture.
Oh Martin how can you be so blind to the truth? 2Co 5:21 tells "that in Him we might become the righteousness of God" Which is true as long as you freely trust in Him. Salvation is available to all but only those that have trusted in Him will be saved. Or did you think they was another way to be saved?
The obvious flaw in what Machin said and you believe is that if God has to give you faith the why did He not give it to everyone since He desires all to be saved? Are you special in some way or maybe you just won the salvation lottery. But then again how do you actually know your faith or salvation is real since you had nothing to do with it and the bible does not say what you need it to say.
Acts 2:39 for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.'
Acts 15:14 Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name,
Is God calling all people at this present time or is he calling for a purpose relative to the future, a people for his name?
Jesus of the tabernacle of David and these people for his name. Are they, see the, "and," in the proceeding; Relative to the residue of mankind?
Acts 15:17 that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called, saith the Lord, who is doing all these things.
Rom 8:23 YLT And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;
Why not say having, the Spirit? Why say having, the first-fruit of the Spirit?
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Is the Spirit being poured out upon all flesh presently? Will it be?
Again Acts 15:18 YLT 'Known from the ages to God are all His works;
I wonder what the feast of first-fruit was to be about? The beginning of the law? The beginning of anything?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well since you cannot seem to make up your mind as to what you want to ask I will just pick one question.
Your question "Is God calling all people at this present time or is he calling for a purpose relative to the future, a people for his name?"
Answer: both.
Hope that helps.
I do not believe so. The elect are chosen for salvtion before the foundation of the world, but they are justified when they believe. As I have said, justification is the legal pronouncement of God the judge that a sinner is justified. And as I pointed out in the O.P., sinners are justified by grace, by the active and passive obedience of Christ and by faith. Faith is as much the gift of God as grace and Christ (Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29), and so we read, 'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.'