Women Deacons

Jimmyc, What are you talking about? The Bible is the inerrant Word, but the translation from Hebrew and Greek to English is not always "inerrant". The english translations also tell us to hate our father and mothers, too. Knowing the correct context helps. This applies to the title "deaconess", too.

Webdog -

I just find it interesting that we interpret the Word literally until the subject of women comes up. Women are mentioned at prophets, judges and tachers - and even discples (Junia) in the Bible, yet we continue to try to work around what the Bible says about them.

Junia was not mentioned as a disciple, Jimmy C.

The Bible says she was noted among the Apostles. That does not mean she was an Apostle.

I used to go to ministers meetings for several years even before I was ordained, yet all the ministers, and many from congregations noted me to be with them.

Junia could have been a constant servant in the Apostles meetings and thus noted among them.

The Bible is specific about women not usurping authority over the man. Apostles were like creme de la creme. They sent out instructions to Bishops, Elders, Pastors and Deacons.

For this cause that the latter took instructions from Apostles, I do not believe Junia was an Apostle as many surmise.

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
Webdog -

I just find it interesting that we interpret the Word literally until the subject of women comes up. Women are mentioned at prophets, judges and tachers - and even discples (Junia) in the Bible, yet we continue to try to work around what the Bible says about them.

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The Bible also says that wives are to be submissive to their husbands. Explain how this situation would work...I am supposed to be the spiritual leader and the head of my home...while at church, I am to submit to my wife's authority as an elder / deacon? The Bible is very clear we are to submit ourselves to church leadership. A woman leader within the church (elder / deacon) contradicts God's Word.

A deacon is a servant, not an elder. Big difference.

It is not inconceivable that a wife can be a leader and still be submissive to her husband. It depends on what your definition of submissive is. Prisclilla is listed very prominently as a teacher to Appolos, yet she worked with her husband. I no doubt that she was submissive to Aquilla.

To many people the word submissive is the same as doormat, yet I do not see that in scripture anywhere. All examples of a Godly woman are a hard working woman.

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
A deacon is a servant, not an elder. Big difference.

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The requirements are the same. Read 1 Timothy

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
It is not inconceivable that a wife can be a leader and still be submissive to her husband. It depends on what your definition of submissive is. Prisclilla is listed very prominently as a teacher to Appolos, yet she worked with her husband. I no doubt that she was submissive to Aquilla.

To many people the word submissive is the same as doormat, yet I do not see that in scripture anywhere. All examples of a Godly woman are a hard working woman.

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I agree, a lot of people think submissive means slave. Submissive means to allow the other to lead. This still goes against God's natural selection of each gender's role. For my wife to give up authority at home, and then for me to give up authority to her outside the home would be a major cause of confusion, as the two would be intermingled (our church leaders are still our leaders even outside the four walls of church). God is not the author of confusion, hence deacons and elders (leaders at church) are to be husbands (leaders at home)...not wives.

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
A deacon is a servant, not an elder. Big difference.

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The requirements are the same. Read 1 Timothy </font>[/QUOTE]The requirements for the overseer are different than the requirements for deacons and deaconesses, at least a little bit. Also, I don't see that overseers and elders are identical, although some do.

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
A deacon is a servant, not an elder. Big difference.

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The requirements are the same. Read 1 Timothy </font>[/QUOTE]The requirements for the overseer are different than the requirements for deacons and deaconesses, at least a little bit. Also, I don't see that overseers and elders are identical, although some do. </font>[/QUOTE]What I meant by the requirements being the same was gender..."husband of one wife".

read in context - Paul is telling fellow believers that they are to help Phoebe in any matter that she needs help in (I dont think it is in doing the dishes). Now I ask you, who is the leader here and who are the followers. Phoebe is the leader, she is a Deacon in any context you read that verse. I will add a bit of conjecture in here and guess that the Church at Cenchreae meets at her house, and she led it. From what I have read of early church history this was a common occurance.

Junia was outstanding among the apostles - ie Junia was an outstanding Apostle. It is just not a stretch to get there.

Whats the old interpretation mantra - if the plain sense of Scripture makes sense, there is no other sense.

Romans 16 1-7
1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church in Cenchreae. 2 So you should welcome her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever matter she may require your help. For indeed she has been a benefactor of many--and of me also. 3 Give my greetings to Prisca and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who risked their own necks for my life. Not only do I thank them, but so do all the Gentile churches. 5 Greet also the church that meets in their home. Greet my dear friend Epaenetus, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked very hard for you. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

The operative word in the phrase "husband of one wife" is ONE. That is, a deacon should not have concubines or more than one spouse.
The way some men regard women, it's a wonder how we ever got that practice put aside!

Check out this document for an interesting perspective. These folks aren't Baptist, but they make a lot of sense on this issue, at least to me.

WOMEN IN MINISTRY

Originally posted by Debby in Philly:
The operative word in the phrase "husband of one wife" is ONE. That is, a deacon should not have concubines or more than one spouse.
The way some men regard women, it's a wonder how we ever got that practice put aside!

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If this isn't eisegesis in it's worst...I don't know what is.

Husband
HUS'BAND, n. s as z.

1. A man contracted or joined to a woman by marriage. A man to whom a woman is betrothed, as well as one actually united by marriage, is called a husband. Lev 19. Deu 22.

Wife
WIFE, n. plu. Wives. [G., a woman.]

1. The lawful consort of man; a woman who is united to man in the lawful bonds of wedlock; the correlative of husband.

The husband of one wife. 1 Tim 3.

Trying to fit Bible into man's doctrine is wrong. Your definition "husband of one wife" supports homosexual marriage and denies God's sanctity of marriage.

I would have to agree with webdog. The passage plainly says 'husband of one wife'. It does not say the wife of one husband, nor does it say the spouse of one spouse.

Most Greek scholars think that 3:11 is referring to women as deacons, not women in general, nor wives of deacons.

1 Timothy 3:11

(vs. 11) The women have qualifications too
1. Who are the women? Look at the verses before and after.
a. We know that Phoebe in Rom. 16:1- 2 is called a diakonos
Rom. 16:1 2 - "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well."

She obviously was a servant in the church. Paul refers to her as a servant, a diakonos, the same word used for deacon.

b. In Hebrew there is no word for wife. The way it was expressed was "the woman of him." This very same expression is used in the NT. In Greek there is only one word for woman and it can mean either woman or wife.

Of the 215 uses of the word for woman, only one seems to be controversial in its translation.

When wife is used it is clear from the context that it is someone’s wife that is being talked about.

"Woman" - always clear from the context

c. In the Greek text there is not a definite article before women or at least a genitive pronoun following the word "woman". This would lead one to translate that word "women" and not "wives"

d. There is plenty of evidence that the early church utilized women in ministry. There were women whose responsibility was to work with other women and children. They performed pastoral work with the sick and the poor and helped at baptism. From the earliest times deaconesses visited the sick, acted as door-keepers at the women's entrance to the church, kept order among church women, taught females in preparation for baptism and acted as sponsors for homeless children. They also carried official messages. There was a clearer line drawn between the sexes than there is today. Women deacons were not on the same level as men deacons. They could not teach and minister to mixed groups of people or men, and they were not ordained.

For the first 1200 years of Christianity there is loads of evidence of woman deacons in the church. However, the Western Roman Catholic church never had them. Whereas the eastern church did

Almost every country outside of the U.S. has women deacons in Baptist churches.

e. The emergence of deaconesses is unclear. But in the third and fourth centuries the office deaconess developed greatly. In a letter dated 112 A.D. Governor Pliny wrote a letter to the emperor Trajan. 'In it he mentions a couple of deaconesses.
(Book X, XCVI, 8, 289)

f. In the early church a pastor never talked directly to a woman in the congregation. He went through a deacon who went to a deaconess who approached the woman.


Most of the qualifications which deacons and pastors must possess are qualifications that most Christians should possess. I believe that there are two reasons for qualifications of a pastor and deacon. One is that God knows the pain that would be inflicted upon an immature pastor and deacon and the pain the immature pastor or deacon would inflict upon others. Secondly it would be a standard and a warning for those who hold the office of deacon or pastor.

Pastors and deacons must be men of good conduct and sound in their faith. They must be people who prove themselves to be an example, not simply as a position of authority. In the church of God there is only one authority who is Jesus Christ. He is the head. All of us are merely servants.

She obviously was a servant in the church.

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So are women who serve in the nursery...again, servant does not infer "leadership", the role of deacon in the church.

Paul refers to her as a servant, a diakonos, the same word used for deacon.

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The phrase can mean deacon (church position), minister and servant. The proper context in 'husband of one wife' would dictate the meaning of diakonos being applied to Phoebe is not leadership.

Remember a servant does not have to lead, but a leader does have to serve. In the proper context, Phoebe was not in a position of authority in the early church just because she was referred to as diakonos. The qualification of 1 Timothy are clear...husband. This cannot be a woman (unless you live in Massachusetts

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Originally posted by Hope of Glory
The requirements for the overseer are different than the requirements for deacons and deaconesses, at least a little bit. Also, I don't see that overseers and elders are identical, although some do.

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There is no mention of deaconesses in the Bible. A woman may perform the duties subscribed to a deacon, but she cannot take the office deacon in the church. (1 Tim.3:8-13) In taking the office of deacon, the woman would be given an authoritative role over a man, which God's Word forbids.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:12)

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:8-13)

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:1-3)

Deacons are servants, not leaders. Usurping authority (playing the master) would require a position of leadership.

Most Greek scholars say the sentence structure is referring to women as deacons, not women in general, nor wives of deacons.