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Tripartite Sheol?
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Luke 3:29, Ελιέζερ = Eliezer
These all died in faith. Died in faith does NOT mean "in the bosom of the Abraham." It means they died believing in God, and their faith was credited as righteousness.
No one died "of the faith of Abraham." The verse does NOT refer to a single person, a "he." "All these" is not limited to the OT saints specifically listed in Chapter 11. The "people of old" include but are not limited to those listed.
Eliezer of Damascus is mentioned in Genesis 15:2, and is never specifically mentioned again. He may have been the one who was described as "in charge of Abraham's household, Genesis 24:2.
Why anyone would place Eliezer within the "people of old" is beyond me. Why not select Moses's son, of Exodus 18:4. Or 2 Chronicles 20:37?
Was your purpose to derail discussion of Sheol?
KenH
Well-Known Member
Excerpts from John Gill's Bible commentary on Ephesians 4:8-10:
When he ascended up on high; the Messiah's ascension to heaven, which may very well be signified by this phrase, "on high"; see Psalm 102:19, and which ascension is to be taken not in a figurative, but literal sense, and as real, local, and visible, as Christ's ascension to heaven was; being from Mount Olivet, attended by angels, in the sight of his apostles, after he had conversed with them from the time of his resurrection forty days; and which ascension of his was in order to fulfil the type of the high priest entering into the most holy place; and to make intercession for his people, and to send down the Spirit with his gifts and graces to them, and to make way and prepare mansions of glory for them, and receive the glory promised and due to him.
he led captivity captive; which is expressive of Christ's conquests and triumph over sin, Satan, the world, death, and the grave; and indeed, every spiritual enemy of his and his people, especially the devil.
And gave gifts unto men; meaning the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and particularly such as qualify men for the work of the ministry.
Now that he ascended,.... These words are a conclusion of Christ's descent from heaven, from his ascension thither; for had he not first descended from thence, it could not have been said of him that he ascended.
what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? this the Papists understand of his decent into a place they call Limbus Patrum, which they make to be contiguous to hell; and where they say the patriarchs were detained till Christ's coming; and that he went thither to deliver them out of it; and that these are the captivity he led captive; all which is fictitious and fabulous: for certain it is, that the place where Abraham was with Lazarus in his bosom was not near to hell, but afar off, and that there was a great gulf between them, Luke 16:23 and the spirits or souls of the patriarchs returned to God that gave them, when separated from their bodies, as the souls of men do now, Ecclesiastes 12:7 nor did Christ enter any such feigned place at his death, but went to paradise, where the penitent thief was that day with him.
He that descended is the same also that ascended,.... It was the same divine Person, the Son of God, who assumed human nature, and suffered in it, which is meant by his descent, who in that nature ascended up to heaven: this proves that Christ existed before he took flesh of the virgin; and that though he has two natures, yet he is but one person.
up far above all heavens: the visible heavens, the airy and starry heavens; Christ ascended far above these, and went into the third heaven, the holiest of all; and this is expressive of the exaltation of Christ, who is made higher than the heavens; and the end of his ascension was,
that he might fill all things, or "fulfil all things"; that were types of him, or predicted concerning him; that as he had fulfilled many things already by his incarnation doctrine, miracles, obedience, sufferings, death, and resurrection from the dead; so he ascended on high that he might accomplish what was foretold concerning his ascension to heaven, and session at the right hand of God, and answer to the type of the high priest's entering once a year into the holiest of all: or that he might complete, perfect, and fill up all his offices; as the remainder of his priestly office, his intercession for his people; and more finally his prophetic office by the effusion of his Spirit; and more visibly his kingly office, by sending forth the rod of his strength out of Zion, and subduing the people under him: or that he might fill all places; as God he fills all places at once being infinite, immense, and omnipresent.
37818
Well-Known Member
.
I am of a persuasion, when Jesus ascended He then took the Old Covenant saints with Him to Heaven to be united with all the saved.
Thank you. My short rebuttal is he doesn't address my understanding.
I am of a persuasion, when Jesus ascended He then took the Old Covenant saints with Him to Heaven to be united with all the saved.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I don't think your understanding agrees with what is taught in the Bible. The spirits of Old Testament saints were not thrown into a holding cell for thousands of years before going to Heaven.
As John Gill wrote, as I quoted in my post #44 above, "the spirits or souls of the patriarchs returned to God that gave them, when separated from their bodies, as the souls of men do now, Ecclesiastes 12:7."
Directed at you for I respect your thoughts.
BTW I ask questions relative to soul rather than body for purpose. As the question as to what Peter thought relative to the soul of David.
Does Acts 2:31 state it by the resurrection the soul of Jesus was not left in Hades? The soul was resurrected as also was the flesh, incorruptible?
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37818
Well-Known Member
We disagree.
Luke 16:29, Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
John Gill doesn't cite them.
Not Moses, Deuteronomy 32:22.
Not David, Psalm 86:13.
Not Solomon, Song of Solomon 8:6.
And no other commentaries. None that I know of.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I don't see anything in those verses that disagree with the spirits of Old Testament saints going to Heaven. I certainly don't see anything in those verses that supports the false idea that the spirits of Old Testament saints were thrown into a holding cell for thousands of years.
Was the Mount of Transfiguration a vision of Christ coming in his kingdom or was it a reality of that moment in time?
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
37818
Well-Known Member
Luke 16:27+29, Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
About the place of torment. Deuteronomy 32:22.
Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
32:22 ὅτι πῦρ ἐκκέκαυται ἐκ τοῦ θυμοῦ μου καυθήσεται ἕως ᾅδου κάτω καταφάγεται γῆν καὶ τὰ γενήματα αὐτῆς φλέξει θεμέλια ὀρέων
Are those future. I wonder if the flames of Luke 16 are future?
And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
the rich man also died, and was buried; “And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes
I wonder if he is being raised from the dead?
V 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
They could not be too far into the future if he expected his brethren to be in time to hear someone come back from the dead.
37818
Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 32:22 original is Hebrew. Greek is a translation.
Our KJV English translation, For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Thank you. That's a kind thing to say.
I understand.
Yes, so between the death of Christ and His bodily resurrection, His soul was in Hades, the "place of the dead." That does not mean it was in Hell, suffering like the rich man. The contexts of the two usages of the word is different.
Yes, I believe that to be correct.
I had not realized that a faction of Christians do NOT believe the OT saints were all taken to "Abraham's bosom" when they physically died, and had to wait there until they could be made "perfect" after Christ had died to provide the means to be made perfect.
Sheol is a Hebrew word, found about 65 times in the Old Testament, and refers to the abode of the dead: either physically as a hollowed out place in the earth, a tomb or grave, or spiritually the "neither world" where the human spirits of those who died under the Old Covenant were taken. And when used to refer to the spiritual netherworld, scripture also points to two places, a place for believers and a place for unbelievers. Thus scripture presents, according to my understanding, a tripartite Sheol.
However there are many other views offered in the literature. Let us consider these views:
First we can dispense with disputing that "Sheol" is used as a place where the physical remains undergo corruption. I am not aware of anyone denying that usage. So let us turn to the spiritual "netherworld."
Not too many deny that Sheol is used in scripture to refer to where the human spirits of unbelievers are taken, a place of discomfort and punishment. There are several verses that indicate unbelievers go there, and additional verses that indicate believers will NOT go there.
Psalm 49:15 NET
But God will rescue my life from the power of Sheol; certainly he will pull me to safety. (Selah)
Here we see that when a believer physically dies, his or her soul is not abandoned to the place of discomfort, but is taken somewhere else. I see this other place as being Abraham's bosom.
To further muddy the waters, some claim Abraham's bosom is a dark dank place since it is within spiritual eye-shot of the dark and dank place of discomfort in Hades. We know that Abraham was promised to go "to your fathers in peace." Not necessarily heaven but a gathering place for the OT saints. Genesis 15:15. Again, in Genesis 47:30 Jacob expected to go to "the fathers" again referring to a gathering place. A dark and dank place does not fit with a "place of comfort."
Finally, there is a persistent false claim Abraham's bosom refers to "Paradise." But no verse says or suggests any such thing. The thief was taken to "Paradise" on the day Christ died, providing the means of being made perfect and thus allowed entry into Heaven, the abode of God. To read back into the verse, that is where those who physically died before Christ provided the means of reconciliation is unsound. The OT Saints had to wait, whereas after Christ's death, the thief did not.
Paradise and "the third heaven" the abode of God are used interchangeable in scripture.
Sheol is a Hebrew word, found about 65 times in the Old Testament, and refers to the abode of the dead: either physically as a hollowed out place in the earth, a tomb or grave, or spiritually the "neither world" where the human spirits of those who died under the Old Covenant were taken. And when used to refer to the spiritual netherworld, scripture also points to two places, a place for believers and a place for unbelievers. Thus scripture presents, according to my understanding, a tripartite Sheol.
However there are many other views offered in the literature. Let us consider these views:
First we can dispense with disputing that "Sheol" is used as a place where the physical remains undergo corruption. I am not aware of anyone denying that usage. So let us turn to the spiritual "netherworld."
Not too many deny that Sheol is used in scripture to refer to where the human spirits of unbelievers are taken, a place of discomfort and punishment. There are several verses that indicate unbelievers go there, and additional verses that indicate believers will NOT go there.
Psalm 49:15 NET
But God will rescue my life from the power of Sheol; certainly he will pull me to safety. (Selah)
Here we see that when a believer physically dies, his or her soul is not abandoned to the place of discomfort, but is taken somewhere else. I see this other place as being Abraham's bosom.
To further muddy the waters, some claim Abraham's bosom is a dark dank place since it is within spiritual eye-shot of the dark and dank place of discomfort in Hades. We know that Abraham was promised to go "to your fathers in peace." Not necessarily heaven but a gathering place for the OT saints. Genesis 15:15. Again, in Genesis 47:30 Jacob expected to go to "the fathers" again referring to a gathering place. A dark and dank place does not fit with a "place of comfort."
Finally, there is a persistent false claim Abraham's bosom refers to "Paradise." But no verse says or suggests any such thing. The thief was taken to "Paradise" on the day Christ died, providing the means of being made perfect and thus allowed entry into Heaven, the abode of God. To read back into the verse, that is where those who physically died before Christ provided the means of reconciliation is unsound. The OT Saints had to wait, whereas after Christ's death, the thief did not.
Paradise and "the third heaven" the abode of God are used interchangeable in scripture.
shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
When do you believe that takes place according to the word of God?
I believe it will take place post the 1000 year reign of Christ.
I believe bosom has to do with close relationship or like relationship.
The beggar died in a relationship relative to righteousness and or to God as did father Abraham.
According to faith the beggar died. The faith spoken of here: Rom 4:16 NKJV Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
The bosom of the Abraham is not a place but a condition/relationship relative to God. IMHO