The "D" Chart

37818 said:

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APB LXX Exodus 12:40

APB LXX English Exodus 12:40, And the dwelling of the sons of Israel, which they dwelt in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, they and   their fathers -- four hundred thirty years.

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Galatians 3:16-17, Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 3:19-20, Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Salvation has always been by grace.

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Maybe we should start a thread to get every religion represented here definition of "saved". Saved is to be renewed to the image of God by his washing away of the guilt and penalty of sin and being reconciled to God, the judge of all the earth, by the blood of his own son, Jesus Christ. Therefore salvation is a NT doctrine because it could not have been accomplished until after Jesus willingly suffered our penalty, death, for us. God accepted his sacrifice on behalf of us all and has offered Life, The Spirit of Christ as his gift, to indwell us, to all who will seek reconciliation to God the Father through faith in his name. His name means Jehovah is salvation, therefore one must have him to be saved. There is no salvation, by grace, or any other way before Jesus died and rose again. Salvation depends on him.

I offer these three statements as proof.

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace,

Consider the time line.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Consider the time line.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The grace of God the scriptures tells of is manifest in the son.

@JD731,
All appearances of God in the OT is the Son per John 1:18, No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

@JD731,
At issue, the dispensation of Promise is not superseded or negated by the dispensation of Law.

Ascetic X said:

God established the covenant relationship with Abraham whose faith and trust in God, prior to circumcision, and not based on any works, was accounted to Abraham as righteousness.

This covenant was confirmed to the nation of Israel via grace (rescuing them from Egypt) before giving them the Mosaic Law. The Law regulated a relationship that was already established by grace based on faith that the Messiah would arrive in the future. Obeying the Law resulted in blessings, but did not make anyone completely righteous.

OT believers were made righteous by trusting in the coming Messiah — and obeying the Law was proof of their faith.

NT believers are made righteous by trusting in the already arrived Messiah, Jesus Christ — and walking in the Spirit instead of the flesh is proof of our faith.

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Yes, as we would see all saved as being under and part of the NC, but the OC still existed towards Israel, as it did bring material and physical blessings based upon obedience

JD731 said:

The chart is showing a mid trib. That should be discussed.

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The chart is showing pre trib. The rapture is before the tribulation….

Which is contrary to the clear teaching of our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24+.

Peace to you

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JesusFan said:

Yes, as we would see all saved as being under and part of the NC, but the OC still existed towards Israel, as it did bring material and physical blessings based upon obedience

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Galatians 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 3:19-20, Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

37818 said:

@JD731,
All appearances of God in the OT is the Son per John 1:18, No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

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john wrote those words as late as AD 90. John was writing about the appearance of Christ as a man, as the God man. He declared God as the Father, his Father, a relationship the OT saints seemed to be unawares of.

canadyjd said:

The chart is showing pre trib. The rapture is before the tribulation….

Which is contrary to the clear teaching of our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24+.

Peace to you

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Matt 24does not have the church in view. Those who are gathered from the nations at the time of our Lord's second advent are Jews being gathered to the land of Israel.

JD731 said:

john wrote those words as late as AD 90. John was writing about the appearance of Christ as a man, as the God man. He declared God as the Father, his Father, a relationship the OT saints seemed to be unawares of.

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Every appearance of the LORD God in the OT was the preincarnate Son on behalf of God His Father.

Genesis 12:7, And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . . . Etc.

John 1:18, No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 8:56, Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

JD731 said:

Matt 24does not have the church in view. Those who are gathered from the nations at the time of our Lord's second advent are Jews being gathered to the land of Israel.

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So are you denying all the saved are all the elect?

Matthew 24:30-31, And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Titus 2:13, Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; . . . .

There is only one second appearing.
Hebrews 9:28, . . . unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time . . . .

JD731 said:

Matt 24does not have the church in view. Those who are gathered from the nations at the time of our Lord's second advent are Jews being gathered to the land of Israel.

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Which is not what the text says.

I’ll just stick with what Jesus said about His second coming and the end of the age in Matt 24+

1. There will be a tribulation such as never seen before nor will will ever be seen again… THE Great Tribulation..

2. AFTER that great tribulation, Jesus returns in the sky, the angels collect the saints (not just Jews) from the end of the earth.

3. Then comes the great throne judgment in heaven. Separation, casting into hell…

Followed by living forever in heaven with our Lord Jesus.

No 1000 year reign on earth. No rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem.

Peace to you

Salty said:

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This is clearly a pre-trib. rapture and exactly the way I see it.

It leaves the obvious question of how long the dispensation of the Church will last, which will determine when the Great Tribulation begins.

The Scripture doesn't tell us the time period (days, weeks, months) between the rapture and the actual beginning of the Great tribulation.

Salty said:

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"Administration" is not the usual word for a dispensation, but not necessarily wrong. The Biblical term "dispensation" is the Greek oikonomia, occurring 7 times and meaning a stewardship. Charles Ryrie says, "A concise definition of a dispensation is this: a distinguishable economy in the outworking of God's purpose" (dispensationalism, p. 33; emphasis his). So a dispensation is a responsibility (stewardship) given to mankind. Mankind always fails, and thus the final dispensation is the millennium, at the end of which is a great rebellion, which is destroyed, after which comes the Great White Throne. Then we enter into eternity, which is not a dispensation because no stewardship is given to mankind.

I've learned through the study of Dispensationalism, and I speak for myself only, the Dispensations are easier to understand if we understand what's taking place during these time periods. God's ultimate plan is unfolding through these dispensations of time, His plan of redemption for mankind. Each dispensation represents increased knowledge for man in His plan leading up to the full canon of Scripture with the most knowledge available so far of His plan for man.

If we consider that in order for man to be redeemed as God has chosen for the believer, He must prepare a Redeemer. This Redeemer must be born into this world as a man for a sacrifice for the sins of man.

God chose a specific people for this Redeemer to come from, all of this began with God calling out Abraham to be the father of this called out people. So it took centuries of preparation for these things to reach the reality of a Redeemer for the sins of man.

The dispensations are a division of time in history and into the future of how God dealt with mankind according to the available knowledge of man at the particular time he lived. Even though man has always been saved by Grace through faith, man was expected to obey God through the information God had revealed at that time.

We now are living in the dispensation of Grace, the Church Age and we have more information on God's plan of redemption than any other dispensation before us.

Once this is understood we can then see that Covenant Theology does not explain how God is dealing separately with the Church and Israel in His ultimate plan of redemption. Something is missing, and is explained in Dispensationalism through the way God has previously dealt with mankind according to man's knowledge.

37818 said:

Every appearance of the LORD God in the OT was the preincarnate Son on behalf of God His Father.

Genesis 12:7, And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . . . Etc.

John 1:18, No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 8:56, Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

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Please understand that I am not posting for the purpose of arguing. There is much I do not know and if someone makes a scriptural presentation of truth that the Holy Spirit bears witness to, my mind will be changed. I am reminded of Phillip asking the Eunuch if he understood what he was reading and his answer was, "how can I except some man guide me.

So, thanks for discussing this.

37818 said:

Every appearance of the LORD God in the OT was the preincarnate Son on behalf of God His Father.

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This of course would be the first two thousand years of human history. That name is Jehovah Elohim, a plural name suggesting the trinity. The different functions of the Godhead were not known at this time because the trinitarian nature of God was not revealed. In the beginning of Ge 15 we are introduced to the Word of God, our Lord in the OT, both by his name and his title and metaphors for the sake of the spiritual mind were introduced as well. Abraham, we learn, is God the Father, Sarah is his wife and represents in type Israel, who will give a miraculous birth to the God Man. This revelation is a great transition in the scriptures and must be noted for sound doctrine..
We learn this newly revealed name for God here for the first time. It is Lord GOD (Adonai Jehovah) and his title is the "word of the LORD. It is he that gives the words of Jehovah to Kings and Prophets going forward." This continues in the NT where he is referred to as word of the Lord a total of 13 times and likewise the Lord God 13 times. this is relevant spiritually.

Consider the Biblical explanation:

Ps 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

In other words, Jesus Christ our Lord is the Lord of the two on the throne and Jehovah is the LORD, God the Father.

This truth is in the context of the op because what chance does anyone have of understanding a spiritual story of redemption by trying to figure it out academically? The answer is none. Personally, I think it is his person as "Christ" that is most often questioned.

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JD731 said:

Ps 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool

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Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Ps 110:1 Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

canadyjd said:

Which is not what the text says.

I’ll just stick with what Jesus said about His second coming and the end of the age in Matt 24+

1. There will be a tribulation such as never seen before nor will will ever be seen again… THE Great Tribulation..

2. AFTER that great tribulation, Jesus returns in the sky, the angels collect the saints (not just Jews) from the end of the earth.

3. Then comes the great throne judgment in heaven. Separation, casting into hell…

Followed by living forever in heaven with our Lord Jesus.

No 1000 year reign on earth. No rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem.

Peace to you

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Here is what the prophet Jesus said to his disciples (and Luke wrote it down) on Sunday of that crucifixion week. He spoke the words of Matthew 24 and 25, called the Olivet discourse, on Wednesday, after he had departed the temple for the last time.

Lk 1911 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

It has been 2,000 Years since that day.

Here is how Jesus corrected their thinking.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. (speaking of himself)

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

So he sets up stewards while he is away because his citizens rejected hi rule. At the end when he returns he judges the stewards and deals with the citizens. Here:

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Those who reject the reign of Christ are the enemies of Christ, in this scenario at least.

Here are the stewards.

1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

The dispensational chart is correct. Everything has a time and place and a context. Jesus gives the whole scope of this age in his parables during the week of the crucifixion. We need to be instructed.

37818 said:

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Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Ps 110:1 Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

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Who is that on his right hand and where is he now? Can we know? Are we told?

JD731 said:

Who is that on his right hand and where is he now? Can we know? Are we told?

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The Man Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . . .

1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.