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Comments on the D Chart and Dispensational Truths

JD731

Well-Known Member
God himself named this dispensation. He called a special man to reveal it, Paul. It is called the "dispensation of the grace of God."

It reveals "the mystery of Christ" which is the theme of the epistle. It was written in 60 AD, 30 years after Jesus died for our sins and rose again from the dead. Much history had passed at that time and an explanation of the events were needed. The epistles are the explanation of the Acts. Paul wrote to gentiles audiences because for the first time in history he is revealing through his letters his eternal intentions of making a way of being renewed to his image by being renewed to the image of Christ, which is what happens to the believer who trusts in his sacrifice and believes God will save him for Jesus' sake. This is what it means to be "IN CHRIST." We "put on Christ. When God sees us after conversion he sees the attributes of Jesus Christ. What a wonderful truth! This is the grace of God. It could not have happened until Jesus died for us and cleansed us from our sins. Now we are in Christ and Christ is in us in the person of his Holy Spirit.

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me, (Paul) to you-ward (gentiles-ward):
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (the fellowship is Jews and gentiles in one body together)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose
which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

The church of Jesus Christ, which is his body, was not an after thought of God. But it was something NEW to men in the counsel of God that was not revealed in the OT. Those of you who are finding a revelation of the church in passages like Mt 24 have totally missed the point. Paul was not saved until AD 37/38. Though the church was not revealed in the OT it's presence was hidden there in the types and figures, the stories and events and we are completely dependent on knowing those things and believing the words literally first before we can mine the spiritual because 1 Cor 2 says they must be revealed to a man with a spiritual mind and it is impossible to understand them without the indwelling Spirit to teach you.
The principalities and powers in heavenly places, who were in the OT times and were aware of all God did, obviously were able to put those things together when they observed the formation of the church with both gentiles and Jews who would believe God and come to him through faith in Jesus Christ.

If you do not believe the words of the Bible which are the words of God you cannot be saved. If your human reasoning and academic credentials is all you have you will miss out on the wisdom of God and you will not see any of these things. This is not to downplay human reasoning and academic credentials but one shouldn't trust is that alone.

Grace - Gentiles - joined at the hip, so to speak. Understanding the NT church is dependent on the OT types and figures. Understanding Israel in the NT is dependent upon believing what God said about her destiny in the OT.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
God himself named this dispensation. He called a special man to reveal it, Paul. It is called the "dispensation of the grace of God."

It reveals "the mystery of Christ" which is the theme of the epistle. It was written in 60 AD, 30 years after Jesus died for our sins and rose again from the dead. Much history had passed at that time and an explanation of the events were needed. The epistles are the explanation of the Acts. Paul wrote to gentiles audiences because for the first time in history he is revealing through his letters his eternal intentions of making a way of being renewed to his image by being renewed to the image of Christ, which is what happens to the believer who trusts in his sacrifice and believes God will save him for Jesus' sake. This is what it means to be "IN CHRIST." We "put on Christ. When God sees us after conversion he sees the attributes of Jesus Christ. What a wonderful truth! This is the grace of God. It could not have happened until Jesus died for us and cleansed us from our sins. Now we are in Christ and Christ is in us in the person of his Holy Spirit.

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me, (Paul) to you-ward (gentiles-ward):
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (the fellowship is Jews and gentiles in one body together)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose
which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

The church of Jesus Christ, which is his body, was not an after thought of God. But it was something NEW to men in the counsel of God that was not revealed in the OT. Those of you who are finding a revelation of the church in passages like Mt 24 have totally missed the point. Paul was not saved until AD 37/38. Though the church was not revealed in the OT it's presence was hidden there in the types and figures, the stories and events and we are completely dependent on knowing those things and believing the words literally first before we can mine the spiritual because 1 Cor 2 says they must be revealed to a man with a spiritual mind and it is impossible to understand them without the indwelling Spirit to teach you.
The principalities and powers in heavenly places, who were in the OT times and were aware of all God did, obviously were able to put those things together when they observed the formation of the church with both gentiles and Jews who would believe God and come to him through faith in Jesus Christ.

If you do not believe the words of the Bible which are the words of God you cannot be saved. If your human reasoning and academic credentials is all you have you will miss out on the wisdom of God and you will not see any of these things. This is not to downplay human reasoning and academic credentials but one shouldn't trust is that alone.

Grace - Gentiles - joined at the hip, so to speak. Understanding the NT church is dependent on the OT types and figures. Understanding Israel in the NT is dependent upon believing what God said about her destiny in the OT.

If I've heard it once I've heard a hundred times, the NT is the OT revealed.

It's very important as you have pointed out to have solid foundation in the OT Scripture.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
God himself named this dispensation. He called a special man to reveal it, Paul. It is called the "dispensation of the grace of God."….

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me, (Paul) to you-ward (gentiles-ward):
The manner in which Paul uses the word “dispensation” is not the same as modern dispensational believers use it
9 …….And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (the fellowship is Jews and gentiles in one body together)…
Correct. No separate future for Jews
If you do not believe the words of the Bible which are the words of God you cannot be saved.
I believe the words of the Bible. I disagree with your interpretation. Are you saying if I disagree with your interpretation concerning dispensational theories, I cannot be saved?

Peace to you
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
The manner in which Paul uses the word “dispensation” is not the same as modern dispensational believers use it
Would you please provide both definitions.
The dispensationalist definition and the definition Paul uses.
Please provide sources.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Would you please provide both definitions.
The dispensationalist definition and the definition Paul uses.
Please provide sources.
Way too much work. It would take many pages to go in depth on how the word was used in Paul’s time and compare with today’s usage.

Basically, it means an “age”. A period of time. For Paul, it portrayed the difference between the age of OT Law and the age of NT Grace. Nothing more or less.

I don’t think the modern “definition” varies much, but the doctrines surrounding how this theology is viewed in scripture, since the late 19th century, has become somewhat complicated, imo, and has made the word mean far more than intended.

There is a focus on OT prophecy fulfillment especially concerning the establishment of national Israel and a rebuilding of a third Temple in Jerusalem complete with animal sacrifices.

I’ll let someone who holds to dispensationalism give the modern view. @John of Japan is very knowledgeable in this area and would be a better source of information than I am.

Personally, I find the modern view to be biblically unsound.

Peace to you
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Way too much work. It would take many pages to go in depth on how the word was used in Paul’s time and compare with today’s usage.

Basically, it means an “age”. A period of time. For Paul, it portrayed the difference between the age of OT Law and the age of NT Grace. Nothing more or less.

I don’t think the modern “definition” varies much, but the doctrines surrounding how this theology is viewed in scripture, since the late 19th century, has become somewhat complicated, imo, and has made the word mean far more than intended.

There is a focus on OT prophecy fulfillment especially concerning the establishment of national Israel and a rebuilding of a third Temple in Jerusalem complete with animal sacrifices.

I’ll let someone who holds to dispensationalism give the modern view. @John of Japan is very knowledgeable in this area and would be a better source of information than I am.

Personally, I find the modern view to be biblically unsound.

Peace to you
Literally unsubstantiated claims and no desire to back up the claim, whatsoever.

Just opinion.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Way too much work. It would take many pages to go in depth on how the word was used in Paul’s time and compare with today’s usage.

Basically, it means an “age”. A period of time. For Paul, it portrayed the difference between the age of OT Law and the age of NT Grace. Nothing more or less.

I don’t think the modern “definition” varies much, but the doctrines surrounding how this theology is viewed in scripture, since the late 19th century, has become somewhat complicated, imo, and has made the word mean far more than intended.

There is a focus on OT prophecy fulfillment especially concerning the establishment of national Israel and a rebuilding of a third Temple in Jerusalem complete with animal sacrifices.

I’ll let someone who holds to dispensationalism give the modern view. @John of Japan is very knowledgeable in this area and would be a better source of information than I am.

Personally, I find the modern view to be biblically unsound.

Peace to you

If you notice Paul said this dispensation of Grace was given to him, and he is giving it to us.

Dispensation is a stewardship, a management, and the knowledge of this dispensation of Grace was given to Paul in the order of management.

Paul gave us this knowledge in his epistles, the greater message of God's redemption, which is in fact the meaning of the New Covenant.

So to say it's nothing more than a difference between the depensation's of Law and Grace is a very poor definition to say the least.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
If you notice Paul said this dispensation of Grace was given to him, and he is giving it to us.

Dispensation is a stewardship, a management, and the knowledge of this dispensation of Grace was given to Paul in the order of management.

Paul gave us this knowledge in his epistles, the greater message of God's redemption, which is in fact the meaning of the New Covenant.

So to say it's nothing more than a difference between the depensation's of Law and Grace is a very poor definition to say the least.

Paul tells us this dispensation of Grace is a mystery, it was a mystery to the OT saints and to the 1 st century saints.

It's no mystery us as God is progressing in "filling the earth with the knowledge of the Lord."

This mystery/ the dispensation of Grace contains many mystery's unlocked by Paul in the God's Redemption plan for man.

I believe the most important part is that the great apostle explains to us the meaning of the New Covenant, where we stand by what the Lord Jesus Christ achieved for us on that Cross at Calvary.

We have been given the knowledge the OT saints would have separated from limbs to have known.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Paul tells us this dispensation of Grace is a mystery, it was a mystery to the OT saints and to the 1 st century saints.

It's no mystery us as God is progressing in "filling the earth with the knowledge of the Lord."

This mystery/ the dispensation of Grace contains many mystery's unlocked by Paul in the God's Redemption plan for man.

I believe the most important part is that the great apostle explains to us the meaning of the New Covenant, where we stand by what the Lord Jesus Christ achieved for us on that Cross at Calvary.

We have been given the knowledge the OT saints would have separated from limbs to have known.

I read to often of those who discredit the epistles of Paul, not realizing Christ Himself gave him this knowledge for us to find our way through this dispensation of Grace that has been so falsely presented in so may ways.

The reason the apostle Paul is the only author of Scripture that tells us exactly how to be saved, and he does it over and over again for us to have no excuse. If we disregard the apostle Paul you can kiss it all goodbye, we have lost our way!
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
The manner in which Paul uses the word “dispensation” is not the same as modern dispensational believers use it

Correct. No separate future for Jews

I believe the words of the Bible. I disagree with your interpretation. Are you saying if I disagree with your interpretation concerning dispensational theories, I cannot be saved?

Peace to you
I am not going to take much time here on answering your objections to the dispensational format of the scriptures and history itself but I will give you a couple instances that you will have a hard time denying without just saying you do not believe what is written .Reason and logic can have you arriving at only one conclusion. That conclusion is that you are not understanding the kingdom..

First of all, I want to give you what an apostle said to Israel about Jesus Christ 50 days after he ascended to heaven to sit on the Father's throne.


Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence (notice the word, his presence) of the Lord;
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his (OT) holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. (this is Jews)
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

So there is a marked difference between Jews and gentiles here in the NT. Jesus Christ is going to be in heaven until a certain event concerning the earth, V21. This event (called the restitution concerning the Jews) is going to be the destruction and death of those who rejected Christ and the deliverance of those who trust him.

Who are the 12 apostles? They are all Jews. I don't think I have to prove that.

What are the 12 apostles? I do have to prove this. I will be brief.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both (the word is reconciled and at perfect peace with one another, not blended. the word is both) but one in purpose) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

So here is the function of the apostles in the spiritual temple he is beginning to form from them. They are the foundation. One lays the foundation first when building.

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye (gentiles) also (in addition to) are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Next, Paul the apostle to the gentiles wrote Galatians in AD 49. It was his first epistle. In explaining the transformation one receives when they receive the Spirit and are saved, he says this.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (So the oneness is a family)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ s, then are ye Abraham s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The point is, they are all children of God no matter the other differences.

Romans was written in AD 58. The 6th epistle of Paul. he said this about Jews, claiming he is one still after being saved. Look;

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Lastly, I don't have a clue how ones refuse to acknowledge these words of Jesus concerning Israel when he returns to rule and reign over the earth.

This conversation took place after Jesus left Galilee and it would not be long before his crucifixion.

Mt 19:1 And it came to pass, [that] when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;

Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last [shall be] first.

The kingdom of Jesus Christ follows the pattern given to Moses, 12 heads and 70 elders. The foundation of the church will be the head of the kingdom in the eternal state proving that Israel and the church are distinct entities in the same kingdom that is visible and real.

When Israel is in the land there is a physical temple. This physical temple that is in the regeneration is described in Ezekiel beginning in chapter 40. Notice he is sitting IN the throne of his glory. In history, the temple is where God resided and met with his people. The temple is also his throne. The spiritual temple is the church and he indwells us continually and we abide in the heavenlies.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

The Bible is a sensible and reasonable book, if one believes the words and honors the context. May the Lord be pleased with this explanation of his marvelous word. Amen.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
If you notice Paul said this dispensation of Grace was given to him, and he is giving it to us.

Dispensation is a stewardship, a management, and the knowledge of this dispensation of Grace was given to Paul in the order of management.

Paul gave us this knowledge in his epistles, the greater message of God's redemption, which is in fact the meaning of the New Covenant.

So to say it's nothing more than a difference between the depensation's of Law and Grace is a very poor definition to say the least.
You misunderstand my point. I wasn’t dismissing the importance of this dispensation of grace. I was emphasizing the scope of the dispensation in Paul’s teaching.

Paul often compared the two…. OT Law and NT grace and their relationship.

The modern systematic dispensationalism goes far beyond what Paul intended.

Peace to you
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
You misunderstand my point. I wasn’t dismissing the importance of this dispensation of grace. I was emphasizing the scope of the dispensation in Paul’s teaching.

Paul often compared the two…. OT Law and NT grace and their relationship.

The modern systematic dispensationalism goes far beyond what Paul intended.

Peace to you
Yet Paul speaks of the promises before the Law.
Paul speaks of the time from Adam to Moses, without the law.
Paul doesn’t ignore these periods of time outside of “OT Law and NT Grace.”
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
You misunderstand my point. I wasn’t dismissing the importance of this dispensation of grace. I was emphasizing the scope of the dispensation in Paul’s teaching.

Paul often compared the two…. OT Law and NT grace and their relationship.

The modern systematic dispensationalism goes far beyond what Paul intended.

Peace to you

Yes, I agree I misunderstood.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Yet Paul speaks of the promises before the Law.
Paul speaks of the time from Adam to Moses, without the law.
Paul doesn’t ignore these periods of time outside of “OT Law and NT Grace.”
Ok. He doesn’t ignore them. I never said he did.

I said that Paul was focused on comparing the age of OT Law and the age of NT grace.

Peace to you.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Would you please provide both definitions.
The dispensationalist definition and the definition Paul uses.
Please provide sources.
Definitions of Greek oikonomia and the English rendering "dispensation" as used in dispensationalism:

Gingrich's shorter lexicon:
"οἰκονομια management of a household, administration, office Lk 16:2–4; Col 1:25; commission 1 Cor 9:17; stewardship Eph 3:2. Plan of salvation 1:10; 3:9. Training in the way of salvation 1 Ti 1:4, * [economy" (pg 137).

Lewis Sperry Chafer:
“A dispensation is a specific, divine economy, a commitment from God to man of a responsibility to discharge that which God has appointed him.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. VII (Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1948), 122.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Definitions of Greek oikonomia and the English rendering "dispensation" as used in dispensationalism:

Gingrich's shorter lexicon:
"οἰκονομια management of a household, administration, office Lk 16:2–4; Col 1:25; commission 1 Cor 9:17; stewardship Eph 3:2. Plan of salvation 1:10; 3:9. Training in the way of salvation 1 Ti 1:4, * [economy" (pg 137).

Lewis Sperry Chafer:
“A dispensation is a specific, divine economy, a commitment from God to man of a responsibility to discharge that which God has appointed him.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. VII (Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1948), 122.

John, I see that administration, stewardship, in this dispensation of Grace given by Christ personally to Paul and him giving it to us, particularly the pastors for the administration.

Am I correct in this, or do you see it another way?
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
John, I see that administration, stewardship, in this dispensation of Grace given by Christ personally to Paul and him giving it to us, particularly the pastors for the administration.
In every dispensation, God gives a dispensation (a stewardship) to mankind. Humans then reject the stewardship, sin against God, and are judged. Pastors have nothing to do with the stewardship of the church age, except to give the Gospel to the world along with all Christians. Human failure in this dispensation is by the world, which in total rejects Jesus Christ.
Am I correct in this, or do you see it another way?
It doesn't matter how I see it. I didn't invent the theology. I simply follow Ryrie in his revised (from Darby and Scofield) and biblical dispensationalism.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
In every dispensation, God gives a dispensation (a stewardship) to mankind. Humans then reject the stewardship, sin against God, and are judged. Pastors have nothing to do with the stewardship of the church age, except to give the Gospel to the world along with all Christians. Human failure in this dispensation is by the world, which in total rejects Jesus Christ.

It doesn't matter how I see it. I didn't invent the theology. I simply follow Ryrie in his revised (from Darby and Scofield) and biblical dispensationalism.

Of course I never rule out the possibility that I'm not seeing all the picture. I'm not schooled as you are, that's why I ask.

I base my opinion on Paul training Timothy to be a pastor, history tells us, and I'm not so sure where this history comes from, that Timothy was believed to be the pastor of the Ephesian Church when John wrote the letters to the Churches.

In 1st and 2nd Timothy, Paul is giving his final instructions to Timothy, in all that he had taught him. That's where I came up with the idea, whether right or wrong, that Paul was passing on the stewardship of what Christ gave him in the line of pastors.

But I do see in your post that this an individual stewardship and we are all responsible for finding the truth.
 
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