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Born Anew?

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
You argue against Calvinist theology on the basis that it doesn't give everyone a fair chance, or that everyone gets an equal invitation. In real life this is completely impossible and does not really exist.
I know that God says that all are without excuse. What that means is that whatever anyone needs to come to God has been made available to them. Impossible for us to think about or accomplish, but with God, all things are possible, especially the things that He says are so.

On the basis that all are without excuse, I cannot and do not argue that everyone doesn’t have a fair chance.

(Romans 1) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
and His foreknowledge is not merely Him knowing ahead of time but it is a Greek verb, meaning He did something in this foreknowing)
Know is a verb. It is something that you do. When God knows, He is doing something. He doesn’t have to be doing anything else when He knows. Knowing is the verb.

If you think that know is an insufficient translation, what would be the better translation?
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
If someone is born again they are regenerated.
I agree with that statement.

I have talked to so many who say that you must be regenerated before being born again.

Or maybe I am lumping too many terms into the discussion.

Salvation is regeneration is born again.

I have met so many that say that you must be regenerated before you are able to be saved. But regeneration is salvation.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I am going to give you the Reformed understanding of soteriology, I will try to be precise as to not make the post too lengthy so that you type "TLDR".

God, in His foreknowledge (and His foreknowledge is not merely Him knowing ahead of time but it is a Greek verb, meaning He did something in this foreknowing) knew about the fall, and had the plan already in place to remedy that fall. After the fall, God gave the first prophecy, the first proclamation of the gospel when He said to the Serpent, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel.”[Genesis 3:15] Here we see a clear line of demarcation between the sheep and goat, the elect and non-elect. Both sides agree there are two groups I just mentioned, but both arrive at the same conclusion via different means. Later we see that the world is completely wicked when we read, Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.[Genesis 6:5] Here God could have justly condemned the whole Adam race and completely wiped them (us) out, but we can take comfort in these words, But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.[Genesis 6:5] Noah found favor (grace in the KJV, iirc, when means unmerited favor), so Noah was no better in the sight of God than the rest, but he (Noah) found favor in God's sight.

There were eight souls saved during the flood and then later we see God coming to Abram, who was an idol worshiper in Ur of the Chaldees. God makes him a promise that he would make him the father of many nations, and that the number of his seed was as much, if not more, than the sand on the seashores and the stars in the sky. Later Joseph gets sold into slavery and makes his way up to next in command to Pharoah, and Jacob and his family, along with their livestock move to Egypt and survive the drought and famine. Eventually another Pharoah rises to the throne who knew nothing of Joseph and that Pharoah and evil entreats the ppl of God and He sends them Moses and Aaron to deliver them out of Egypt.

God later says these words that show those He chose was based solely upon Himself and nothing inherently good within them, "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."[Deuteronomy 7:6-8] And to further drive home this point, He said “You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth;.”[Amos 3:2a] So, God has always been a particular God to a particular ppl.

God choosing Israel based solely upon Himself and absolutely nothing from them, mirrors His electing grace in the NT. The elect are the elect based solely upon Him, not them. There was not something special in them that was missing in the non-elect, nor were the non-elect more wicked than the non-elect, and that caused Him to choose them.

And this story is replete in both Testaments.

Israel is nothing special in this world, but what they represent in their calling and the promises made to their forefathers, the lord will turn this world upside down to save all of them. He does exactly that during the GT to bring them back to what intended for them to be.

The Lord has said, not for your sakes do I do this, but for my glory. Israel will be even more in the future than at the peak of David's and Solomon's kingdom. The world will wonder at what the Lord has done with His chosen.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
That's a good point. From that we could ask the question, does man send himself to Hell or does God do it according to the Gospel?

What say ye, JF?
God decreed the end result for those who denied Jesus to save them from their sins, but did not cause them to get them
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
The only thing I can say for those such as J.C. Ryle, Horatius Bonar and as you say perhaps John Owen is that they were moving away from calvinism and more to what the bible actually said.

Calvinism IMO stands on shifting sand. They will latch onto out of context verses that are not clear but contain a word they need and then reject clear scripture when it shows their view is wrong.
Calvinism just explains the truths that we did indeed die spiritually in Adam, and its only the working of God that can and will get us alive again in Christ
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
It's been my experience in having discussions with Calvinists through the years and specifically one here on BB, won't mention his name, that the double predestination part is smoothed over. Now some will straight up admit the double predestination and stand firm on it being the absolute sovereignty of God.

At the same time they are admitting God sends the un-elect to Hell by His choice in never opening their heart, which if Calvinism is true, God could have easily done.

So it's God choice and His individual decree on man that Hell is ever enlarging.
I believe as a Calvinist that God decrees that those who reject Jesus to save them from their sins will end up in the end into Hell, and that he had predestination and elected unto salvation all of His elect to get to heaven, Its directly choosing out His own, and allowing the lost to get the desires of their own hearts
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I believe as a Calvinist that God decrees that those who reject Jesus to save them from their sins will end up in the end into Hell, and that he had predestination and elected unto salvation all of His elect to get to heaven, Its directly choosing out His own, and allowing the lost to get the desires of their own hearts

Calvin taught irresistible grace for those whom God has chosen, leaving the rest in their sins.

Those He didn't choose never had a chance to reject Christ.

That is the "awful decree" that Calvin admitted to in double predestination.

Who can keep up with the variations of Calvinism?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Calvin taught irresistible grace for those whom God has chosen, leaving the rest in their sins.

Those He didn't choose never had a chance to reject Christ.

That is the "awful decree" that Calvin admitted to in double predestination.

Who can keep up with the variations of Calvinism?
Same might be said of non cal, as its pel, semi pel, freewill, sinless perfection second act of grace etc
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Same might be said of non cal, as its pel, semi pel, freewill, sinless perfection second act of grace etc

We're talking about the act of salvation, there are some exceptions but for the most part we non-Calvinist agree on salvation, especially the Baptists and Pentecostals.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
John 1:12-13, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I agree with that statement.

I have talked to so many who say that you must be regenerated before being born again.

Or maybe I am lumping too many terms into the discussion.

Salvation is regeneration is born again.

I have met so many that say that you must be regenerated before you are able to be saved. But regeneration is salvation.
Salvation and regeneration are not the same thing, but happen simultaneously. No one is saved and not regenerate and no one is regenerate and not saved.

Regeneration = born again
Salvation = being saved from sin

So, they are not the same exact thing, but are mutually inclusive.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Israel is nothing special in this world, but what they represent in their calling and the promises made to their forefathers, the lord will turn this world upside down to save all of them. He does exactly that during the GT to bring them back to what intended for them to be.

The Lord has said, not for your sakes do I do this, but for my glory. Israel will be even more in the future than at the peak of David's and Solomon's kingdom. The world will wonder at what the Lord has done with His chosen.
My point is that those God chose were not any more special than those He justly left condemned in their sins.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Salvation and regeneration are not the same thing, but happen simultaneously. No one is saved and not regenerate and no one is regenerate and not saved.

Regeneration = born again
Salvation = being saved from sin

So, they are not the same exact thing, but are mutually inclusive.
I can see the difference although I don’t differentiate as much between them as you do.
I have been told many times that they must be regenerated in order to understand and then receive salvation.

Your position, in my experience, is a rare one. But I agree with you on timing. That “No one is saved and not regenerate and no one is regenerate and not saved.” is a true statement.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
And until/unless the Holy Spirit opened your heart mind eyes to the gospel, would have stayed deaf and dumb even while reading your bible

That is what you calvinists say but that was just my God given free will in action.

Have you read Rom 1:16? That verse shows that God has opened our hearts, minds and eyes and that is why we have no excuse.

The calvinist seems to think He only does that for a select few but the reality is that He has done it for the whole world.
 
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