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John Piper

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by tinytim, Nov 22, 2005.

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  1. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Any thoughts about John Piper?

    I have never listened to him, and don't know too much about him, I just downloaded some of his stuff into e-sword so I was wondering what you all thought.

    Oh BTW, please be nice, even if you disagree with him.
     
    #1 tinytim, Nov 22, 2005
  2. tfisher1

    tfisher1 New Member

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    I highly recommend you download some some of his sermons.... especially his "ROMANS" series. I believe he may be one of the best preachers in the world. His theology is strongly influenced by the likes of Jonathon Edwards, John Bunyan, John Owen, Lloyd-Jones etc....(IE: He's a strong Calvinist).
    His messages are pretty powerful and usually leave me feeling like falling on my face before a almighty sovereign God. HIs messages are usually pretty deep in my opinion. If you are of the type that not only hates Calvinism and can't even listen to someone who strongly believes in the doctrine, then I would suggest NOT listening to him, or you'll soon be a Calvinist and I'm sure you wouldn't want that! [​IMG]

    Todd
     
    #2 tfisher1, Nov 22, 2005
  3. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Piper-Calvinism is the new rage. He is extremely popular right now. His emphasis on the glory of God and spiritual hedonism are definitely his strengths. His lack of appeal to the broad spectrum of believers on the journey and his overemphasis on a system-based theology are perhaps his weakness.

    These two "weaknesses" result in a church composed primarily of sponge Chrisitians (mainly those who leave other churches to go "deeper") and a church that baptizes less than 40 people a year. I am not saying this is right or wrong ... it is simply my observation of his ministry style.

    Overall Piper is great to listen to and learn from, but like every great leader/pastor/preacher, you must embrace the positive and cipher through the negative. I don't believe his words are close to revelation like many of the callow Calvinists I have encountered.

    I also think Piper is an intersting twist to the whole expository vs felt needs preaching. He is not a true expository preacher (much like his historical mentors Spurgeon and Edwards). His sermons are more theological treatises, which could be viewed as "felt needs" preaching based on his audience. Just an observation.
     
    #3 All about Grace, Nov 22, 2005
  4. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    TinyTim - Where did you find the Piper Resources for E-Sword?
     
    #4 Hardsheller, Nov 22, 2005
  5. OleSchoolBaptist

    OleSchoolBaptist New Member

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    Most of his material is on his website:
    http://www.desiringgod.org/
     
    #5 OleSchoolBaptist, Nov 22, 2005
  6. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    To all "who have an ear to hear!"

    I would recommend Piper to all, especially to the Independent, Separated, Fundamentalists, "soul winner," Baptists. I especially think all of those who equate eternal salvation with the "easy believism," say a prayer, and sign a card bunch could profit from his theology, books, and sermons.

    That would be a real "hoot" to hear them critique his theology and preaching.

    I for one would love to enter into that discussion.

    Many of us Baptist have forgotten that there is a strong stream of Baptist thought that runs alongside the Presbyterians in the Doctrines of Soteriology. That is what we once were, especially those of us who are historic Southern Baptists. Many of us have also forgotten, or never knew it in the first place, that the Baptists were around BEFORE the Fundamentals essays and all of the "secondary separation" non-sense of the 20th century.

    When the contemporary Baptists hear anything that resembles what the Baptists were preaching 100-200 years ago; they take offense at what some of us hold as "The Gospel," "The Whole Gospel," and "Nothing But The Gospel!"

    If there are any out there that meet my description, then Piper is certainly the place to begin. But, please try to jettison (sp?) all of your presuppositions b/f listening so as to listen objectively.

    sdg!

    rd
     
    #6 Rhetorician, Nov 22, 2005
  7. JohnB

    JohnB New Member

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    I like a lot of Piper's stuff, his writing on missions and his book "Don't Waste Your Life" in particular.

    His sermons, however, are a little too much like theological treatises for my tastes. (Perhaps the influence of his German seminary education.)

    Though Piper is a strong Calvinist, contrary to what an earlier poster said, it was his Calvinism that helped push me out of Calvinism rather than into it.

    His article on the two wills of God in salvation (which itself is an elaboration of Jonathon Edward's writing) is the masterpiece of Calvinistic Orwellian double speak that helped push me over the line.

    Piper (unlike many Calvinists) affirms that God truly desires all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9) yet his secret will condradicts this expressed will. At the beginning of his article, Piper admits that this sounds like double talk. But, by the end, it still sounded like double talk to me.

    The latest twist for Piper is that his "Baptist" church is now dropping the requirement of baptism by immersion for membership.
     
    #7 JohnB, Nov 22, 2005
  8. OleSchoolBaptist

    OleSchoolBaptist New Member

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    I agree with this assessment. I think it is sad when Baptists who stood so strong on this issue would change.
     
    #8 OleSchoolBaptist, Nov 22, 2005
  9. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    When you go to www.e-sword.net then click on links, then the link to e-sword modules, you can find them there.

    Or here you go, this is simpler...
    http://www.e-sword.net/usermods/

    Hope that helps.
     
    #9 tinytim, Nov 23, 2005
  10. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    Rhetorician,

    why would you equate being "soulwinners" with negativity?
     
    #10 bapmom, Nov 24, 2005
  11. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    bapmom,

    I was reared on the fringes of the SBC as well as the Fundamentalits strains of both Baptist sects. The Jack Hyles, John R. Rice, Bob Jones, "Finney-type" revivalism was the "stock-n-trade" of what I was all about. I was a bus pastor, went to the Sword Conferences, Bus Conferences & Clinics etc. I read "The Sword of the Lord" every week. We "won people to Jesus!" Not many of these came on in the church, were baptized, or went on to become mature believers.

    In the John Piper discussion at hand, I have come to understand that the Gospel is more than getting someone to sign a card, walk down the isle, shake the preacher's hand, gettin' them "dunked and drapped" as the old Black preacher used to say.

    IMHO, the whole manner and means of the Fundamental Baptist movement when it comes to "easy believism" is bankrupt. It probably comes to its worst end in the thousands "that were saved" in the Jack Hyles SS crudades and such.

    Are people ever told to take up their cross and follow Christ? Are people ever told to count the cost of discipleship? Are people ever told that it may cost them their very lives to b/c a follower of Christ? by the slick talking Gospel salesmen, sign a track, I want to go to Heaven, bow your head say this little prayer "soul-winners?"

    I think not! We have Finney and his ilk and progenitors to thank for this tradition of selling people a bill of goods and calling it the Gospel. I certainly do not have the right to say things like: Did you say the prayer? Then you are saved! Is Jesus a gentleman? You know he is a gentleman; therefore he would not lie. If he would not lie then you know you are going to Heaven b/c you did what he said to do.

    I have not the right to give false assurance to someone to whom I have just made a slick presentation as the "Gospel salesman," and they have bought it all just b/c they want to go to Heaven when they die.

    To Luther and the other Reformers, there had to be the preaching of the Law before the preaching of the Gospel could have its full effect. In some ways the evangelical churches and movements have made their own problems and now the chickens are coming home to roost!

    Now don't forget you did ask.

    sdg!

    rd
     
    #11 Rhetorician, Nov 24, 2005
  12. Baptist Bible Believer

    Baptist Bible Believer New Member

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    D. L. Moody said, "Preach the Gospel to every one and if some one gets saved whom GOD has elected to be lost He'll forgive you."
     
    #12 Baptist Bible Believer, Nov 24, 2005
  13. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    BBB,

    Don't you dare infer from what I said above that I believe that God does not save using some of those methods. He does.

    I believe some are saved in spite of the "jerk them down the aisle" approach. People in some areas of the early church had to be taught (catechised sp?) for up to a year b/f they could be baptized and own come into the church.

    It is the slick talking, pre-packaged, take another notch in my "soul-winning" belt excesses that scare me.

    Jesus always and forever told the folk in the NT what it meant to follow him and the costs they had to pay or be willing to pay. Jesus did not tell the Rich Young Ruler to "come down the aisle" or "sign a card." He told him to sell all he had and follow him.

    Nowhere, in his own cultural way of his time or actions; did he ask anyone to sign a card, come down an aisle, or "do you want to go to Heaven!"

    In my understanding, he seems to have done just the opposite. He made the Gospel so hard and so offensive that many actually turned back from following him; b/c they wanted a "bread messiah," or political king, or a miracle worker. See John 6 for further details.

    We had better be very careful when you and I offer "salvation" or "heaven" that is not what Christ offered.

    I appreciate the D.L.Moody quote. But didn't Finney, probably one of your heros, confess at the end of his life that he wondered where all of the "converts" were?! Check that out.

    That is all I am saying!

    AMEN!?

    sdg!

    rd
     
    #13 Rhetorician, Nov 24, 2005
  14. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    I hear what you are saying Rhetorician. But lets not generalize all fundamentalist Bapitsts as being infected with Finneyism. That happens to be one segment of a very broad group, and I am sad that you had to experience the full "effects of Finnyism". It is an incredibly dangerous infection, that has not only infected parts of fundamentalism, but the Evangelical world in large.

    You can trace the roots of Finnyism in the large seeker-sensitive churches who are willing to compromise the truth in order to draw crowds, as well as the Hylesesque type fundamentalist churches, with there easy-believism and pressure orriented invititations.

    As to John Piper, I have been blessed by his ministry. I really enjoyed "Let the Nations Be Glad!" (I am a foreign missionary) and have just started "The Pleasures of God". His appendix at the end concering the two wills of God is excellent.

    I am disturbed however by the recent desicions by the elders of Bethlehem Baptist to allow non-immersed folks to join as members. This goes against not only the Scriptures, but Baptist history and practice as well. Many of our forefathers were willing risk danger for their stand on believers baptism.

    God bless and Happy Thanksgiving!
     
    #14 4His_glory, Nov 24, 2005
  15. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    When you go to www.e-sword.net then click on links, then the link to e-sword modules, you can find them there.

    Or here you go, this is simpler...
    http://www.e-sword.net/usermods/

    Hope that helps.     </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks.
     
    #15 Hardsheller, Nov 24, 2005
  16. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    I have some personal connections to John Piper. Though I don't agree with everything he does, I've been tremendously blessed by his ministry.

    Among other desires, I know he has a burden to reach out to those fundamentalists who have seen theological weaknesses and a lack of passion for the Lord in their churches. I'm sure that's upsetting to many fundamentalists who cannot admit that such things are often problems within fundamentalism. So he's taken a lot of heat.

    I believe he has much to teach us--especially on the glory of God as our supreme desire and guiding life-philosophy.

    He's reminded me that when it comes to Christ, His beauty, comes before my duty. Something I'm afraid many fundamentalists have forgotten.
     
    #16 Tim, Nov 24, 2005
  17. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    Tim,

    I honestly believe it would be more appropriate here to state that that is something which many CHRISTIANS have forgotten.

    To try to say that it is a problem even semi-exclusive to fundamentalists is missing a much larger picture....to say the least.
     
    #17 bapmom, Nov 24, 2005
  18. jarhed

    jarhed New Member

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    I fear that you come terribly close to Lordship Salvation in your theology. Where are all the converts is the same question Jesus asked! "Were there not ten clensed...where are the nine?" In my experience that is a pretty sound number...one will serve for every ten that are saved. Samson, Lot, and most of the host of Israel that left Egypt were saved...but they did not serve God. A heart for God (the servents heart) is not a requirement for salvation...

    If FAITHFULNESS is a requirement for salvation then I AM LOST, for I am only an unprofitable servent. It is all about him, and none about me.

    Now, this catechism you speak of..."and all those that gladly received his word were baptized and THAT DAY"...

    I know salvation seems so simple, but that is because it is. The OT picture of the REDEEMED slave RETURNING TO HIS MASTER after redemption, of his own free will, is POST REDEMPTION and has nothing to do with his REDEMPTION...it is already post-facto.

    If Piper doesn't dunk he should be HONEST and take the name BAPTIST off the sign. But, hey, if we can change salvation, we can change baptism too. Whats the big deal? Sigh. Evil men shall wax worse and worse.

    (I can't wait to be accused of disbelieving in repentance) [​IMG]

    [ November 25, 2005, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: jarhed ]
     
    #18 jarhed, Nov 25, 2005
  19. Jensen

    Jensen New Member

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    Rhetorician,
    I agree with what you are saying. The SBC has become so obsessed with baptisms (like it is a race with other denoms or something)that preachers will do anything to get people down the isle and into the tank! I heard Jeff Crook (pastor near Atlanta) talk about how "sinful" it was for churches who baptized zero in a year. He said that if he was the pastor of that church he would "hit someone on the head and knock them out" and then dunk them just so there was at least one baptism.

    I think of poor old Noah and Jeremiah....just could get anyone saved and baptized!

    Last time I read the Bible it said God does the saving! ALL OF IT!
     
    #19 Jensen, Nov 25, 2005
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Nothing to fear in that. After all, the Bible requires confession of "Jesus as Lord" to be saved (Rom 10:9). To preach anything less than Lordship salvation is to preach another gospel.

    Piper has benefitted many greatly. There are some theological issues, such as the baptism thing and his sympathy for the charismatics. IN addition, he has joined hands in ministry with some people whom he shouldn't.

    I have many of his books, and have enjoyed them. His God-centeredness is something that is strong in many segments of fundamentalism and we rejoice to see him there as well.
     
    #20 Pastor Larry, Nov 25, 2005
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